What’s in this Episode?

Join Dick Hardy and Lead Pastor Jamie Austin as they sit down together to address the aging out of Boomer pastors and the crisis it is creating in churches and denominations all over the world.

Read the Transcript

Dick Hardy 0:06
Hey friend, it’s great to be with you on this Church Tips Podcast. And I’m excited today to be with my good friend, Jamie Austin, from the great state of Oklahoma. What’s going on today, Jamie?

Jamie Austin 0:16
Hey Dick. Thank you so much for having me on. And I tell you, I just had the opportunity to reconnect with you. In the early days of pastoring here at Woodlake, and I’m not just saying this man, you were crucial as a consultant; holding our hand in church revitalization, which we didn’t even know what that was almost 15 years ago now. At least I didn’t anyway, and so it’s just an honor to be with you today, man.

Dick Hardy 0:39
Well, that’s really cool. Yeah, the Lord was good to us in those days and the Lord’s good to us today. We’re excited to be able to talk. You know, you and I here a week or so ago, we talked about a subject that really, I’ll use the term near and dear to your heart. It’s the subject that is not a near and dear kind of subject, but I heard the passion coming out of your voice on the issue of church movements.

Dick Hardy 1:04
Now we’re inside the Assemblies of God, but you know, this podcast is going to Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Independents, you name it. But the fact is, baby boomers are heading off the scene.

Jamie Austin 1:19
Right

Dick Hardy 1:19
And there’s not enough 20 and 30 somethings coming up in the ranks. So talk to us, what should the church, big C and little c local church, be thinking about?

Jamie Austin 1:31
Yeah, you know, this is something that all denominations, all non-denominations are dealing with. Obviously, we’re going to be talking about it from from the Assemblies of God standpoint, so a little bit of some bumpers on this here. But, what we’re seeing is this mass shortage of pastors, those stepping into not just senior pastoring roles, but even staff pastoring roles – youth pastors, children’s pastors.

Jamie Austin 1:57
In fact, I was talking to a pastor the other day, he said, I cannot even find people to interview. In fact, he kind of made the joke, he said, I’d interview anybody right now, but I can’t even find anybody to interview.

Jamie Austin 2:08
So that lines up with what we’re seeing statistically right now, which is very concerning that we’re having this drop off of ministers. In fact, in the Assemblies of God in 2022, those under 40 make up only 17% of our overall credential holders.

Dick Hardy 2:28
Oh my goodness.

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Jamie Austin 2:28
That is not just concerning, that is frightening. Absolutely frightening.

Dick Hardy 2:32
It really is.

Jamie Austin 2:33
I was talking to…

Dick Hardy 2:34
You know, in my interactions with these other fellowships, they’re facing the very same thing. It’s not unique to one fellowship at all.

Jamie Austin 2:46
Right. In fact, I was talking to one of our denominational leaders the other day, and they were talking about the concern about even our Bible colleges are producing fewer and fewer credentialed ministers. There was at least one of our Bible colleges that produced zero credentialed ministers.

Jamie Austin 3:05
And I was thinking back in the 90s when I graduated, there were, in just my institution alone, there were nearly 200 of us coming out with credentials in hand. So, we got a major problem right now. In fact, some have deemed it the pipeline has dried up, or we’ve got a broken pipeline.

Jamie Austin 3:23
I would agree with that. I think it’s time to rethink that at the denominational level, at the nondenominational level. But, I think the answer will be found in our local churches.

Dick Hardy 3:33
Yeah. Well, talk to us about that. I mean, you know, out of the church comes pastors. So let’s go with the local church first, what should the local church be thinking about in this vein?

Jamie Austin 3:49
Dick, that’s a great question. In fact, it’s kind of interesting. If you look at the early days of the Assemblies of God, us being Pentecostal and Spirit-filled, it wasn’t until recently that we actually realized the value of education. So, we’re kind of late to the ballgame in that.

Jamie Austin 4:04
However, in the early days we were a very pioneering movement. So, it wasn’t uncommon for somebody to come to a church, they get saved, they receive mentoring and training at the local church level, and then launch out. Especially in the early days of our movement, the church was handed off to those individuals. So there is something to that.

Jamie Austin 4:27
I really believe that and I think it’s time that the local church began to answer their own question of, “How do we get the pipeline going again?” Now that could look like local ministerial training schools and ministry schools of leadership.

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Jamie Austin 4:42
In fact, I talked to one of our larger churches in our district churches, just a little over 2000 people, and they actually have a leadership training school in their church and they have a large pastoral staff. And the pastor told me, he said, “My entire staff has come out of our church except for one staff member.” (This is a mother church – I believe they have six affiliate churches.)

Jamie Austin 5:06
And that was the thing. He said, “We’ll deal with the frustration ourselves. We’re going to raise them up, we’re going to train them, we’re going to get them the education, and then we’re going to launch them out.” I believe we’re going to see a reversion back to that. That churches have to get serious and not just serious, but intentional about raising up ministers and staff members.

Dick Hardy 5:26
Okay, so let me let me tread where I should be fearful of treading.

Jamie Austin 5:32
Go for it.

Dick Hardy 5:35
You know, I worked for Central Bible College for a number of years. And we began to see fewer and fewer students coming in that sensed the call of God on their life, to full-time ministry.

Jamie Austin 5:54
Right

Dick Hardy 5:54
And so I’m going back, this is where it gets dangerous, and man, I love youth pastors, I love children’s pastors. But I would submit that maybe in the local church, in our effort to be broad in God’s call to every believer, which is true, we maybe have somehow diminished that unique call to give your life to full-time vocational ministry.

Dick Hardy 6:22
And so, you know, we would see students showing up at the Bible College, and if they were oriented to something, they were oriented to youth ministry.

Jamie Austin 6:32
Right

Dick Hardy 6:33
Because they just left a youth group and their youth pastor was the best. They weren’t thinking children’s pastor, because it’s been six years since they were in children’s ministry.

Jamie Austin 6:43
Right

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Dick Hardy 6:43
And everything, I get it, is about the immediate. But what can we do at the local church level, to raise the value of being called to ministry?

Jamie Austin 6:52
Right

Dick Hardy 6:53
I mean, you think about it. We listen to stats. People talk about how many people got saved this month or this year? How many people got baptized? I don’t hear, how many people received a call to ministry?

Jamie Austin 7:09
Right

Dick Hardy 7:09
I think we need to raise that. I don’t know. I mean, is that even possible at the local church level?

Jamie Austin 1 7:14
Absolutely. Let me piggyback on you, because I think, and again we’re talking from an Assembly of God standpoint. You know, for probably good reasons, at least on paper, we closed down our only institution that was directed directly at ministerial training. I believe we’re seeing the effects of it now, if I’m honest.

Jamie Austin 7:34
We have diminished, I believe.

Dick Hardy 7:36
Yeah, because that was about 10 years ago.

Jamie Austin 7:38
Yeah

Dick Hardy 7:39
Was that about 10 years ago, nine years ago?

Jamie Austin 7:41
Yeah, and I believe in the entrepreneurial spirit. You’ve got a lot of people that are going to Bible college and say, “Yeah, I want to be in ministry, but I want to be in marketplace ministry”, which is completely valid.

Dick Hardy 7:52
We get it.

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Jamie Austin 7:53
However, we’ve got to get back to this idea. I have been called by God, I’ve been anointed by God, and at some point, I gotta put my hand to the plow and not look back. There is something to that.

Jamie Austin 8:03
And also, I think we need to train our ministers and young people that are coming up, men and women. Of course we’re in the AG, we’re cool with that, right? Men and women. That it’s not just about a title.

Jamie Austin 8:21
In fact, I was listening to a podcast recently talking about the value of a minister on staff, that if they would adhere to their call and not their title, they become more valuable to the organization, because they’re not stuck in one particular area.

Jamie Austin 8:38
I think right now, in fact, we’re talking with our staff. We just had this meeting recently. For our future hires, we’re going to hire individuals knowing they’re not going to be with us forever. It may be five to eight, maybe ten years, and we’re going to launch them out.

Jamie Austin 8:52
In Oklahoma right now, in the Assemblies of God, we have 24 open churches, and I’ll be honest with you, we can’t even find anybody to go to these places. Some of them can pay good salaries even. And so it’s very concerning right now.

Jamie Austin 9:06
But I think the local churches have to step up and go, hey, I’m gonna hire this youth pastor, I’m gonna hire this kid’s pastor, maybe the small group leader, or whatever it is. Or, you know, good church member Joe’s got a call of God on his life. I recognize that, I’m not only going to call it out, but I’m going to raise him up. And I’m going to be more concerned about the church, big C, not just my church, little c.

Jamie Austin 9:32
In fact, I was talking to a pastor friend of mine the other day, he said it so beautifully. He said, We’ve got to be concerned about the Kingdom, not just our castles. So, I think the answer to that is going to be found in pastors with a vision for the Kingdom of God, that they don’t mind raising up that youth pastor, that children’s pastor, that board member.

Jamie Austin 9:52
Dick there was a day that they were… In fact, I’ve talked to several of our older ministers in Oklahoma. They said, when I was serving on a church board, out of nowhere, God called me, and the Pastor called it out in me, and here we go.

Jamie Austin 10:05
But we’ve got to bring back that sense of, there’s a spiritual nobility to the call of God that I’m going to step out in faith. I know I had aspirations of being a businessman or businesswoman, or I’ve had aspirations of doing this or doing that (I think we all did), but God called me and I forsook it all and said yes to the Lord.

Jamie Austin 10:05
But, I think local churches, I think maturing pastors, have got to step up and fill that gap. One of the stats I looked at just recently, in the Assemblies of God right now, the median age of active ministers is 53 years old.

Dick Hardy 10:46
Oh boy. Oh man.

Would you like a personal leadership boost? Take the 5-day Leadership Challenge for Pastors! A 15 Minute per day investment for 5 days will change the trajectory of your leadership and influence.

Jamie Austin 10:46
Of all ministers, it’s 58. And I know in our movement, we’re already recognizing the challenge. In Oklahoma right now, just in credentialed ministers alone, we lost 30, just from last year to this year. So no wonder there’s a shortage right now.

Jamie Austin 10:49
So, is that through death or retirement? Or both? Or what is that 30?

Jamie Austin 11:13
That everything. That’s ministers that quit, ministers that died. And that’s with us bringing on so many in the year too. We’re still at a negative 30 over last year.

Dick Hardy 11:26
Yeah. Okay, so let’s shift gears now. I think you’re a Presbyter there in your district. Are you still a Presbyter?

Jamie Austin 11:30
I am.

Dick Hardy 11:48
Let’s go to big C now. Let’s talk about a fellowship.

Jamie Austin 11:52
Right

Dick Hardy 11:53
You know, whether it’s the Baptist, the Presbyters, the Assemblies of God, the Lutherans, the Independent. How does a fellowship do this? Because they’re not, you know, in this headquarters.

Jamie Austin 12:04
Right

Dick Hardy 12:05
But they’re the director. How does how does that happen at the national or district level, however the church is structured?

Jamie Austin 12:14
These are opinions and I reserve the right to be wrong. But I’ll say this, I think that at the local district level in the Assemblies of God, we have what we call DSOM, District Schools of Ministry. Or in Oklahoma we call them OSAM, Oklahoma School of Ministry.

Jamie Austin 12:21
I think it’s imperative that we beef that up. That it’s not just about getting people through credentials, but it’s also about job placement or ministry placement opportunities. So, I think there’s going to need to be a lot of tweaking in that.

Jamie Austin 12:44
In fact, we’re doing that right now. We have a new director over that. And I know our district superintendent, Dr. Darrell Wooten, that’s his passion right now. So, I think as a district, that’s where we’re going to start, we’re going to beef that up. We’re going to involve more people teaching.

Jamie Austin 12:59
And then also at the end of it, we’re going to be very clear about tracks, Next gen track to senior pastor track, associate pastor track, administrative pastor track. And then when they when they graduate these programs, we’re going to talk about job placement, and get them connected.

Would you like a personal leadership boost? Take the 5-day Leadership Challenge for Pastors! A 15 Minute per day investment for 5 days will change the trajectory of your leadership and influence.

Jamie Austin 13:15
The second thing that I want to talk about is this, I believe ministers, men and women, need to recognize a patriarchal or matriarchal anointing on their life. Meaning this, God has called me to raise up, either next generation or who’s next.

Jamie Austin 13:34
I want to be careful when I say this. All the apostles are in heaven. However, I believe in an apostolic anointing over individuals lives. And I think if we can lean into that and cultivate that at the district level, denominational level. There are individuals that just have a natural calling.

Jamie Austin 13:57
In fact, right now I sit at a desk, this chair and the desk I’m sitting behind right now, where I pastor my home church, if we didn’t point that out. My pastors, Armon Newbern, H.A. Brummett, if you look at their history, countless ministers and missionaries were launched out from underneath them. That was normative. And we’ve got to get back to that.

Dick Hardy 14:20
Yeah. That is so good. The good thing about this is the conversation you and I are having is not an isolated conversation. This kind of conversation is happening in denominational headquarters all over the country. It’d be interesting to know, even around the world, what’s going on.

Dick Hardy 14:43
I’m guessing they’re facing the same kinds of things. Although the church in Europe, they have bigger issues to deal with, with their decline. But, I really believe that with men and women leading the charge, like you’re doing in Oklahoma, that the greatest days of the Church are still ahead.

Jamie Austin 15:07
I agree.

Dick Hardy 15:08
We’ve got to deal with this leadership shortage, but it can be done.

Jamie Austin 15:14
Right

Dick Hardy 15:14
And I think the Lord goes before us in that way for sure. You know, this has been so valuable, Jamie. If a viewer or listener, you know, is sitting there saying, well yeah, I kind of agree with it, you know. And, maybe they’ve caught or haven’t caught things. If they haven’t caught anything, what is it you want them to remember of our conversation?

Jamie Austin 15:40
I believe it’s this, we’ve got to a have a vision for, you just said it multiple times, the big C church, not just our church. I really believe we need to think about if the Lord tarries, who’s going to be sitting in this chair when I’m done. Who’s going to be sitting in Gotebo, Oklahoma, which there is a Gotebo, Oklahoma. Who’s going to take that church out there?

Jamie Austin 15:57
Am I willing to operate in some patriarchal role, where I’m going to raise up somebody and not just raise them up, but it’s like my kids. I’m going to provide for them. I’m willing to put my money, my time, where my mouth is to make sure that we’re going to raise up ministers.

Jamie Austin 16:23
If anybody’s out there listening to this today, and boy that’s grabbed their heart, I would challenge them. Figure out a way to put resources, to put energies behind, about raising up individuals.

Jamie Austin 16:36
Whether they’re coming through our Bible colleges, maybe they’re interning at your church, or maybe there’s just somebody sitting out there in the seats, that God’s hand is so clearly on their life.

Would you like a personal leadership boost? Take the 5-day Leadership Challenge for Pastors! A 15 Minute per day investment for 5 days will change the trajectory of your leadership and influence.

Jamie Austin 16:45
And maybe we need to ask the question, Hey, do I need to raise them up in order to release them? Or let them take my role? I don’t know.

Jamie Austin 16:45
I’ll leave with this. I believe God’s called each and every one of us, especially if you’ve been in this thing for a while, to be a platform. And I’m not just talking about a stage. I’m talking about a launch platform, like a rocket.

Dick Hardy 17:08
Yeah

Jamie Austin 17:09
Help me to be somebody that others can stand on my shoulders and launch into their calling. And I’m gonna make sure that’s possible.

Dick Hardy 17:18
Amen. Amen. Amen. Wow, this has been so good, Jamie. I can’t thank you enough for just this stimulating conversation on raising up this next generation of pastors and leaders. And to the viewers today and the listeners thank you for hanging out with us.

Dick Hardy 17:38
I would say we’d certainly love to have you rate and review the Church Tips Podcast, this particular episode. This helps us get the word out to more people. And certainly if you have not subscribed, go ahead and hit that subscribe button.

Dick Hardy 17:52
And we’d love to have you get the regular content that’s coming out from Leaders.Church, Church University, and good pastors like Jamie. Also, I want to mention to you that Jonathan Hardy and I have put together the 4 Secrets Masterclass, which is a 60-minute masterclass designed to help you as a leader grow to the next level.

Dick Hardy 18:15
Because one of the things we know, as a pastor gets better, the church gets better. And if a pastor is not growing, the church is not growing. So the masterclass is free to you, just go to Leaders.Church/Secrets, and you’ll find generally about two or three options of times today and tomorrow that you can jump in.

Dick Hardy 18:36
And we’d be honored to have you. Again, Jamie, thank you very much for being with us today.

Jamie Austin 19:00
Dick, thank you so much for the opportunity. It’s been a blast.

Dick Hardy 19:05
You bet.

Dick Hardy 19:06
Okay, friend, thanks for hanging out with the Church Tips Podcast. We’ll see you next time. Take care.

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