What’s in this Episode?

In this episode of the Church Tips podcast, Dick Hardy and Jeff Deyo (former lead singer of Sonicflood) talk about how to have tough conversations with worship team members when that becomes necessary.

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Show Notes:

Worship Team Effectiveness Blog

PDF’s:
The Pastors Guide to Navigating Generational and Cultural Worship Gaps
Honoring The Lead Pastor

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Read the Transcript

Dick Hardy 0:06
Hey friends great to hang out with you here on this episode of The Church Tips Podcast. And I’m blessed today to have my friend Jeff Deyo from the great state of Minnesota. Jeff, say hi to everybody.

Jeff Deyo 0:17
What’s up guys, great to be here. Thanks, Dick.

Dick Hardy 0:20
Jeff is on the faculty at North Central University. And he claim to fame from the past, he was a former lead singer with the great band, Sonicflood back in the day. And we’re just honored to have him here as part of the team here with Leaders.Church in Church University.

Dick Hardy 0:39
Over the last number of months, we’ve gotten acquainted almost last year, but since the, I think was October, September, October, we connected up and began the creation of what is turning out to be the Worship Leadership Track Course in Church University. And we’ll be releasing that here in the next number of days. So you want to stay tuned to that. Along the way, we’ve created two lead magnets that are designed to be PDFs for you as a worship leader or as the lead pastor. And the first is the worship leaders guide to navigating generational and cultural gaps. And the second is the worship pastors guide to honoring the lead pastor. And I think you would find both of these, whether you’re a worship leader, or a lead pastor, staff pastor to be very, very helpful. So we’ll talk about that here at the end, because it’ll be in the show notes as we’re heading along the way.

Dick Hardy 1:39
Today, we want to talk about a subject that, you know, we’d all like to kind of get away from, but the reality is, in ministry, when you’re dealing with people that are times you got to have tough conversations. Navigating tough worship conversations. So whether that’s lead pastor to worship leader, worship leader to worship, singers, band, production, there are times you have to have those conversations. So Jeff, give us a little jumpstart. You’ve been around the block a day or two, you’ve had those conversations. What are some things we need to be thinking about in those conversations?

Jeff Deyo 2:17
Well, first of all, as we don’t want to run from them, you know? I mean, that’s the natural tendency, right? Put it off, put it off, put it off. I mean, I get it, I struggle with it too sometimes. I’ve been around enough to know that I shouldn’t do that and I really can’t do that, but it’s still the natural tendency is to try to put these things off. So I mean, because nobody wants to get that text message, right? Like, hey, can we chat it up? And you’re like, oh, no, my trouble get up. Exactly, exactly. But these are very important conversations. And I’m telling you, you’re gonna do yourself a disservice by letting them linger, not not dealing with them soon enough. And so you need to jump into it. Because, because you love the people around you, you do want to have these conversations.

Dick Hardy 3:05
Yeah, you really do, you really do. And you know, these people are so valuable to the entire scope of the church. It’s not just that window on Sunday morning. But it’s the entirety of the ministry. And so handling these properly is absolutely critical. When you go into these, how do you deal with a team member who doesn’t respect your leadership?

Jeff Deyo 3:33
Yeah, it’s tough because that can happen. Sometimes it happens in public, you know, maybe after rehearsal or something like that. You know, you’ll come up with an idea, say, hey, team, we’re going to do this, and then they kind of push back in public, or they kind of laugh or they smirk, or those types of things. And, you know, depending on the seriousness of it, maybe it’s something you don’t have to worry about. But if it continually keeps happening, that type of thing, you know, you’ve got to have that conversation.

Jeff Deyo 3:58
Now, we all know what happens so often when you have that conversation. You might go to that person, you’ve sent them that text message and said, hey, we need to get together. And so we finally found the time and the date to do it. And we get together and we have a little bit of chit chat beforehand. And then finally we get to that moment, and you say, well, it feels like you are disrespecting my leadership or it feels like you’re always pushing back, those types of things. And they look at you and go, I don’t know what you’re talking about. What do you mean? I respect,you know, so there’s always that challenge and so, at that point, obviously you have to talk about it some more. Well, this is my impression, you know, and I want to I want to help walk through this because I don’t want us to have any difficulties.

Jeff Deyo 4:46
So you know, it is challenging. Part of it, like I said, is just getting the date scheduled and getting a time to talk with them and a time that works for them and time that works for me and all that stuff. So, but I encourage you, it will be well worth it, and they will respect you more for having that conversation, then kind of, you know, trying to bypass it.

Dick Hardy 5:08
Well, my experience on those kinds of conversations is, as painful as they are to go into, you are glad to be on the other side of the conversation.

Jeff Deyo 5:19
Yes.

Dick Hardy 5:19
Even if it doesn’t go all that great.

Jeff Deyo 5:21
Yup.

Dick Hardy 5:22
But you, you’ve stepped into it and that’s a role of leadership. Yes, you got to step into it. Now let’s, let’s spin this or turn it just a piece. That’s between the lead pastor and the worship leader or the worship leader and a team member. What about conflicts, conversations, between team members? There’s a bump there. What do you do with that?

Jeff Deyo 5:51
Yeah. Like, when you know, when you have two team members that need to talk, or they have confrontation?

Dick Hardy 5:59
They’re going like this, and they’re on your team.

Jeff Deyo 6:04
Exactly. And one of them, what normally happens is it goes like this, right Dick? Somebody will come to you and say, Hey, I just want you to know, like, So and so is really, just, like really hurting my feelings or they’re really getting on my nerves. Or they just said this, and they did this, and they did this. My very first thing that I always ask, and this is really based on Matthew 18, right? I always ask them, have you talked to them? Because I don’t really want you now. I’m here to help and all that stuff. And then if you come to me, that’s fine. Because I do want to support you. But I don’t really, I’m still going to end up sending you back to that person saying, hey, listen, I need you to talk to them, not talk about them, but talk to them. And it’s that thing, again, it might be uncomfortable, but I always encourage that team members say, look, I would encourage you to set up a time, you know, just or grab them after rehearsal, say, hey, can we just talk for a couple minutes, you know, and not make too big of a deal about it, but to actually talk about it.

Jeff Deyo 6:59
Now, if that meeting doesn’t go well, then that’s when I would get engaged. And that person would come back to me saying, hey, I tried, they blew me off, they were angry, whatever. Then I would say, hey, I would probably want to go talk to that person. Set up a time where the three of us could talk. But it’s really pointless to do that before those two people talk. It’s so important to do that.

Dick Hardy 7:20
You just referenced Matthew 18. That is, that is the model of Matthew 18. Just what you described. Yeah. I didn’t tell you this beforehand. Back in the day, we had a pretty successful high school basketball team, and we played a team up in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And the coach told us, their two stars did not like each other. Okay, so you’re a worship leader, and you’ve got this team, a team has to pull together. Here’s what he had us do. He had us prevent the other three, five players on the team, the other three players, we would not let them have the ball defensively. The two that did not like each other had to pass the ball to each other. And of course, it just was disastrous. Why? Because those two couldn’t get along. You cannot afford I’m just telling you worship leader. Pastor, you cannot afford to have players on your team that aren’t getting along with each other. Yeah, so doing exactly what Jeff said to do. Exactly what Matthew 18 says to do is the right thing to do.

Jeff Deyo 8:29
Let me say one more thing about that Dick, too, is just encouraging those two people individually to remember that they are not each other, each other is not the enemy. Right? We know the Bible tells us that we don’t war with flesh and blood. Right? Right. Ephesians 6, so they’re not the enemy. Even if they’re being mean, it’s like, hey, I want to develop compassion. If someone’s being mean, to me, we say this around our house, a lot of people do. You know, hurting people hurt people, right? So it allows me to have compassion for someone who might be biting at me or saying mean things to me. And I can go to them and say, Hey, can I pray for you? Or, I want to be praying for you. That type of thing. So it’ll help.

Dick Hardy 9:07
Yeah, that’s good. How do you do with removing someone from the team in a godly way? I mean, you know, probably feels like a last resort, but that sometimes can happen. How do you do that?

Jeff Deyo 9:20
Yeah, this is so crucial, Dick. I mean, I really think we do this wrong a lot. Cause there’s this feeling out there in the world, and then also amongst like, people who serve at churches that they kind of get thrown under the bus. And a lot of people they over-exaggerate on this as far as the way they talk about the church. But we’ve got to do better at this. Because it feels like sometimes we just go oh, moral failure, boom, you’re gone. Or, oh, you did this, oh, you did that you’re gone and we have no love and we have no support and we have nothing like that. So you know when it comes to getting to that place where somebody needs to be taken off the team, you know, I would say this, that there, depending on the seriousness of the issue, obviously, there needs to be some sort of… There’s a couple things, a track record, right? If there’s a track record of, oh, we’ve done this 2,3,4 times, you know, depending again, on the seriousness, then we know that we’ve got to deal with this, and we’ve got to be serious about it.

Jeff Deyo 10:19
Also depends on the way they respond when you talk to them, right? Because you’re gonna have that conversation, the first time you hear they do something that they shouldn’t have done, you’re gonna bring them in, you’re gonna say, hey, let’s talk about this. And you’re going to confront them in love, you’re going to say, look, you know, we can’t, we don’t do that our standards are high. No, we’re believers in Christ, the Holy Spirit gives us strength to walk in purity, and holiness. So talk to me about what you did all that stuff. Well, man, you learn a lot from somebody by the way they respond. And, you know, if they respond with humility, man, you know what, you’re totally right. I really messed up. And I’m so sorry. That tells you a lot right there. Now they can be faking it. But man, the guys that I don’t know, I don’t know. You know, that’s just where things go. And you know, they got that defensive thing, man, now, you know, you’re in trouble.

Jeff Deyo 11:09
So, the step I feel like that we miss sometimes is the part where we want to bring restoration, right? Instead of just like booting them to the curb, we’re like, dude, you’re still on the team. But we don’t feel like you’re… So many times when you take somebody off a team, it feels like a punishment. And in some ways, you know, maybe that is true, but I don’t look at it that way. I look at this as, hey, you have a lot going on in your life, too much for you right now, to be in leadership like that. We want to help you get free, we want to help you get yourself right. So we’re gonna take away some of these responsibilities that might be clouding your judgment, or, or causing you stress and those types of things.

Jeff Deyo 11:50
But, we want to walk with you. In fact, if I’m taking a guy off, or female off the stage, off the team, I’m gonna say I want you to be right up front, every Sunday. I want you to be leading worship, but from the congregation, because what they don’t understand a lot of times is that, oh, well, this is my calling. Well, no, look, you lead worship, whether you’re on the stage or whether you’re off the stage. So that’s, that’s a little bit, you know, we could dive into it more, but that’s how I’m feeling about it.

Dick Hardy 12:19
Yeah, no, that’s good. You know, there are relationships that happen outside of your worship rehearsals. And the two that come to mind is a certainly romantic relationships that can develop, business relationships that can develop between two players, on their team. And so, and periodically, those kinds of relationships can get in the way. And now you’re not, you’re not supervising people’s love life, you’re not supervising, you know who they go into business with. However, it impacts you. Yeah. How do you deal with that if it starts to go sideways?

Jeff Deyo 13:00
Yeah. Well, and it is challenging. You know, most of the time, if you’re dealing with adults, you know, you try to keep hands off policy, but like you said, there are times where it can go sideways, or it can, it can start to interfere with the overall vision of leading people in worship, right? That is our overall vision and everything, we want to filter everything through that, Say okay, we are here to serve the congregation, serve the people so that they can have an encounter with God that we believe is going to change their life, right. So when that romantic relationship starts to get in the way of that, or maybe in the way of the team dynamic, I think that’s what can happen a lot of times is there becomes this team dynamic problem, because they move from, hey, we’re just friends on a team to there being something more than that.

Jeff Deyo 13:49
And so, you know, obviously, you want to navigate this with care, with love. There could be a moment where you need to call them in and say, hey, I noticed that you guys have been hanging out a little bit more, you know. I think I would keep it pretty light hearted. Part of this, I think, too, is making sure that you keep your eye on the culture of your team. And you kind of you don’t wait too long to deal with this stuff.

Jeff Deyo 14:12
Say, hey I’ve noticed you, maybe you’re just kind of able to have fun about it, and say I’ve noticed you guys… And then they can maybe fill in the gaps and say, you know, actually, we did kinda go on a couple of dates and stuff like that. And, and you just kind of steer them and encourage them and say hey, I love that you guys are hanging out. That’s amazing. And then you know, if there’s some issues that you feel is hurting the team dynamic, then you can bring that up and say, you know, just be careful when you guys are at rehearsal, that you’re not too focused on each other and not focused on the whole team. Things like that.

Dick Hardy 14:45
That’s good. That’s good. Well, you know, we could probably take this thing about six different ways and all the challenges that people face with it. Well, how would you summarize this? Jeff, what’s the takeaway you you want the viewers and listeners to grab today?

Jeff Deyo 14:59
Yeah, You know, I think the main thing is you have to as a leader, you have to lean into these conversations. You know, so often worship leaders, and lead pastors, we we love ministry. You know, we want to sing, we want to preach, we want to be involved in doing all that stuff. But we don’t realize that the big element of leading a church is actually dealing with and loving people, supporting people. And I think that’s such an important thing. And so part of that is conflict resolution. Part of that is just engaging with people in their lives. You can’t just sing the songs and kind of run over people. So I just really encourage you guys, love your people, and then make, make time for those difficult conversations.

Dick Hardy 15:43
Oh, that’s so good. Jeff, that is so good. Thank you very much for taking time to hang out with us on this podcast today. I want to remind the listeners and viewers again, the two PDFs that are available to you, the worship leaders guide to navigating generational and cultural gaps, just go to Leaders.Church/Gaps. And the other is the leaders worship leaders guide to honoring the lead pastor. And that’s very simple there too, Leaders.Church/Honor, so it’s slash gaps, slash honor. So you can find those in the show notes.

Dick Hardy 16:21
And certainly feel free to bounce around any of the other worship, leadership podcasts we’re producing and keep your eye peeled for I’m telling you, when this course comes out, it’s going every place and I’m just telling you, I saw the content develop. Every pastor, every lead pastor is going to want this. Every worship pastor is going to want this. So keep your eyes peeled. And we’ll have it for you coming up in the next number of days. Again, Jeff, thanks for hanging out with us.

Jeff Deyo 16:52
Thank you. Appreciate it, Dick.

Dick Hardy 16:55
Make it a great one today. Be blessed.

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