What’s in this Episode?

We are sitting down with Pastor Walter Harvey to discuss succession planning in the urban context.

Read the Transcript

Dick Hardy 0:06
Hey, friend, it’s great to be with you here today on this Church Tips Podcast. And I am so excited. I’ve been trying to get this guy booked, not his fault, my fault, but just trying to get it to happen here over these last number of months. And I connected up with Walter Harvey, from the great state of Wisconsin here last week. And I said, Hey, let’s get this recording done. And so, Walter, great to have you on the podcast.

Walter Harvey 0:32
Dick, it’s great to finally be with you. It’s good to be here.

Dick Hardy 0:36
It’s all good. Well you know, we want to jump right into our topic today. And that is, Succession Planning in the Urban Context. Now, one of the things that’s happening across the church world today is that the boomers, of which Walter and I are both boomers. And, and I’m a middle boomer, and he has pointed out to me that he’s a little bit of a younger boomer, so I want to thank him for that reminder.

Dick Hardy 1:05
But, they’re moving off the scene. They’re beginning to move towards retirement, and the next generation is coming up behind. And so how does that happen, in particular in the urban context? So, Walter, take it away. Talk to me about what you’ve just walked through and what pastors should be thinking about.

Walter Harvey 1:26
Yeah, well, my experience in the African American church growing up is that generally there is one pastor, it’s not multi-staffed. There may be ministers, or people with the title of the pastor, but generally they are not salary.

Dick Hardy 1:46
Yeah

Walter Harvey 1:46
And so, the culture is that we help this pastor lead until they die, or until or until they’re no longer able to serve. And then they’re asked to leave or they’re forced to leave. And so that’s been my introduction to succession. Didn’t know what succession looked like. I’ve seen not literally, but I know of in my own city, where pastors have died in the pulpit.

Dick Hardy 2:13
Yeah

Walter Harvey 2:14
Right?

Dick Hardy 2:14
Now, you’re in Milwaukee.

Walter Harvey 2:17
I’m in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Literally have died with their boots on, as if that is a point of glory or gives you a golden cheer in heaven. It does not. That’s not success. There’s no success without succession.

Dick Hardy 2:22
Right

Would you like a personal leadership boost? Take the 5-day Leadership Challenge for Pastors! A 15 Minute per day investment for 5 days will change the trajectory of your leadership and influence.

Walter Harvey 2:27
And so as you mentioned in the introduction, we’re both in the boomer age. I’m 63. Three years ago, just before my 60th birthday, we completed a 18-month succession plan. My successor took the baton on March 24, 2020. Right at the beginning of the Coronavirus pandemic, when it was finally identified, you know, why we are wearing masks, why people are getting sick.

Walter Harvey 3:02
We had already planned the succession, right? Eighteen months before. So going back for me, when I was 50 years old, I felt like God spoke to me and said, If I’m still in the senior pastor chair at my 60th birthday, I will miss the next season he has for me. And so for 10 years, I was in succession planning. You know, the first conversations I had were just private, they were me and God.

Dick Hardy 3:31
Yeah

Walter Harvey 3:31
The next level of conversations I had with me and my wife. Note to guys, open up and talk to your wife about what you’re doing. Right? She’s been with you on the journey, she’s going with you through the process, and she wants to be with you in the next season. So we privately had these conversations.

Walter Harvey 3:49
And then thirdly, we have one adult son, we brought him into the conversation because he’s also then and still is part of the church staff. So the conversations have to happen.

Walter Harvey 3:59
And then fourthly, I had private conversation with the person that I had identified, and thought and felt peace about being a potential successor. And it was it was highly confidential. But pastors have to know the moment that you have that conversation with this person, they’re going to begin to dream. Right?

Walter Harvey 4:20
They’re going to begin to see themselves in this role with you or without you. And so you’re opening up, not necessarily a can of worms, but you’re opening up a realm of glory to them. Biblical example is Moses in the tent, right? In the tent of meeting, he meets with God. Who he takes with him is Joshua.

Walter Harvey 4:20
So Joshua is exposed, he’s a helper, he’s pouring water on the hands of Moses, whatever. But when Moses leaves the tent, Joshua stays behind many times and lingers. So God’s beginning to speak to your successor as he did with Moses and Joshua.

Walter Harvey 4:54
So I went through that process of conversation. And then in our church polity, I introduced the topic of succession to our church board. We have a board of elders, that’s our polity. We don’t have deacons, we have elders. And so, these elders and I had at least two months of conversation about the role of succession, without me even mentioning his name is Marcus who’s now in that role.

Would you like a personal leadership boost? Take the 5-day Leadership Challenge for Pastors! A 15 Minute per day investment for 5 days will change the trajectory of your leadership and influence.

Walter Harvey 5:24
Marcus, at the time, was auditing our elder board meetings. He wasn’t even an elder at the time. And then so after two months, I introduced. I said, Hey guys, the reason we’re having this conversation, I think Marcus is the person that is equipped and aligned and in position to take this church to the next season.

Walter Harvey 5:48
So communication is important. With God, with your spouse, with your immediate family, with your successor, and then with your board. Then we did a year long process, where at our annual business meeting a year prior, we introduced succession. We introduced my transition out and his transition in a year before, and gave the congregation a time to grieve.

Walter Harvey 6:12
And congregations go through the grieving process, right? From denial, to anger, to blame, to bargaining, finally to acceptance, and sometimes back and forth. But we pastor them through that process. And then a year after, just before COVID, he’s voted in. And then he takes the installation baton at the beginning of the Coronavirus.

Dick Hardy 6:36
Wow. You know, and I’ve had the privilege of meeting Marcus. But man, the Lord put that together for sure. You know, that whole sequence that you laid out there? Really, I’d like to have you say it again.

Dick Hardy 6:57
I know you said it. But pastor, leader, board member, you’re watching this right now; get your pen and paper out, get your tablet, get your whatever, because Walter is going to give you the steps that he walked through. I think I heard five sequences of conversations.

Walter Harvey 7:13
Yeah

Dick Hardy 7:14
So, give those to us again, and then we’re going to unpack that a little bit.

Walter Harvey 7:17
I’ll give them to you again. And I’ll even give you more specific timelines. So, it’s a ten year process.

Dick Hardy 7:23
How long?

Walter Harvey 7:24
Ten years

Dick Hardy 7:25
Ten years, okay.

Walter Harvey 7:25
Ten years of conversation with me and God began 10 years prior.

Would you like a personal leadership boost? Take the 5-day Leadership Challenge for Pastors! A 15 Minute per day investment for 5 days will change the trajectory of your leadership and influence.

Dick Hardy 7:29
So you’re you’re basically about 50 at that time.

Walter Harvey 7:32
Exactly. I’m 50 years old.

Dick Hardy 7:35
And that’s ahead of the game. I normally tell pastors to get after this at 55. So you were an overachiever.

Walter Harvey 7:45
I tend to be. I’m thinking I’m at halftime. I’m 50 years old. I’ve got another 50 years of life and health and ministry, if God says the same. And then I have conversations with my wife. You know, maybe six, eight months after me and God are in this wrestling, this Jacob wrestling match at Peniel.

Dick Hardy 8:05
So, first with God and then your wife.

Walter Harvey 8:08
And then my wife. Yep. And she’s hearing conversations from God as well that I didn’t even realize. She’s like, I was just waiting for you to just, you know, hear from God and come and talk to me. Because I’ve been sensing this happening for a while. So when I speak to her, there’s confirmation. That’s like, eight months after God drops the seed in my heart.

Walter Harvey 8:30
And then about a year later, we have conversations with our son who’s on staff then, and still now as the media director. And, so for the next five years or so, I’m looking for my successor in the congregation, in the community, in the country, right? I’m on a leadership search. And I see a couple of people, a couple of guys.

Dick Hardy 8:56
I’ll bet this is probably not advertised, right?

Walter Harvey 8:59
This is still private.

Dick Hardy 9:00
Yeah. Just you’re surveying the landscape.

Walter Harvey 9:02
I’m surveying the landscape. And I’m looking at a couple of people and I think like Samuel, oh, Abinadab. Shamah is here. Surely the Lord’s anointed and God’s like nope, nope, nope. You’re not the one.

Would you like a personal leadership boost? Take the 5-day Leadership Challenge for Pastors! A 15 Minute per day investment for 5 days will change the trajectory of your leadership and influence.

Walter Harvey 9:15
And I had a premature conversation with one person that didn’t go too well. Because when I had the conversation with him, it was like, Hey, great I’m ready to go now. When are you leaving? I was like, oh, that’s not the one. Right? That’s ambition.

Walter Harvey 9:31
But Marcus was on the spot. Marcus went through a process of development. When I realized he’s the one, I brought him in as part of the teaching team. This is about five years before the handoff takes place.

Walter Harvey 9:45
And then I made him a commissioned local church minister. And then I brought him in as an auditor on the elder board so that he can begin to see, you know, all the ins and outs of leadership. And then eventually he became an elder.

Walter Harvey 9:58
And of course, within that five year process, I bring the conversation not only to him and his wife, and they pray for about six months privately. And after they give the confirmation, then I bring the conversation to our elder board. And then we have about two years, just as an elder board, to carry this thing; to steward it, to pastor it.

Walter Harvey 10:23
The congregation had 18 months of foreknowledge before the actual installation took place. During the 18 month period, Marcus finished up his job as a full time school principal in our public school system.

Walter Harvey 10:39
So, he’s a high level leader. He’s a high capacity leader, right? He’s leading a staff of 50, you know, teachers and janitors, and counselors. He’s doing a multi-million dollar budget. So he’s got those transferable skills.

Dick Hardy 10:53
Yup

Walter Harvey 10:53
And so for nine months, he then comes on staff at the end of his summer school year, and those nine months, we are passing on relationships, and we’re modeling co-leading for the congregation. He’s given the title of Senior Associate Pastor, because we had other associates as well.

Dick Hardy 11:13
Sure

Walter Harvey 11:14
And that’s another topic too. How do the people who don’t get hired, who are on staff, you know, how do you process them? So that’s somewhat of the timeline for us.

Dick Hardy 11:24
I want to mention that as you’ve just described this, I know we led this one talking about Succession Planning in the Urban Context. I’m hearing what you just said to be applicable in virtually any kind of church I’ve come across. I don’t think what you’ve done is unique to that process, that sequence, to the urban context.

Would you like a personal leadership boost? Take the 5-day Leadership Challenge for Pastors! A 15 Minute per day investment for 5 days will change the trajectory of your leadership and influence.

Dick Hardy 11:55
Pastor, if you’re in the urban, you’re in suburban, you’re in rural, I’d be listening to what Walter just had to say, because I think he truly listened to the mind of the Lord going forward. Okay. Give me a pitfall or two that you maybe observed, or you could suggest to pastors, You might want to watch for this, as you’re navigating along. And I didn’t tip you off about that in advance.

Walter Harvey 12:23
That’s all right. I think the first thing we have to watch is our own heart, right? We have to make sure that we have a heart of David and not heart of Saul. Saul was intimidated by the songs that were being sung about David. He’s cool with killing 1000, but you’re ascribing 10,000 to David.

Walter Harvey 12:43
And so there could be a hidden darkness in our heart that we’re not really ready to pass the baton, or pass the ball.

Dick Hardy 12:23
Yeah

Walter Harvey 12:23
This is where the urban context comes in because I wrote a book called, Alley-Oop. You know, again, playing basketball. And my goal, then as a point guard, was I got more joy out of making an assist than I did of scoring. Right? It’s exciting to, you know, to dunk the ball, to shoot the ball and see it go in, but I got joy out of making a successful pass and seeing others score.

Walter Harvey 13:18
That’s the heart of Saul. It’s setting other people up for success. And an alley-oop is just setting up your teammate and making it easy for them to catch and dunk the ball. They score, the team wins, the momentum goes forward, the crowd goes wild, they buy into you. So, first conversation or the first discernment needs to be our own heart.

Dick Hardy 13:39
Yeah

Walter Harvey 13:39
Secondly, I think we need to know the heart, the character, the calling, the competency, the capability, the compatibility, you know, and a couple of more C’s we can throw in there, of our potential successor.

Walter Harvey 13:56
Because if there is ambition in their heart, and it’s not filtered with a godly calling and character, then it can damage the relationship between predecessor and successor. But, it also can bring a lot of damage to the Kingdom. So those are two things we need to discern and watch for.

Dick Hardy 14:15
Yeah. No, that’s good. You know, again, we stated that this is such an elephant in the boardroom for churches across the country. Walter and I are part of a denominational fellowship. There are others that are independent, but nonetheless, just the the wave of boomers now heading out the door, and the new group coming up to be able to steward this process, I think is a great privilege.

Dick Hardy 14:54
Give us a parting shot here. Walter, is there anything you want passed? You got good men and women that are watching this, they’re pastors, they’re board members, they’re just good folks in the church. What is it you want them to hear out of what we just talked about?

Would you like a personal leadership boost? Take the 5-day Leadership Challenge for Pastors! A 15 Minute per day investment for 5 days will change the trajectory of your leadership and influence.

Walter Harvey 15:10
God is good. When He calls us, His calling is forever, it’s without repentance. Our career may not be forever. In fact, it won’t be, right? We not only have a shelf life, but our careers have a shelf life. And we have to become comfortable with that, that we’re going to die, that that job is going to die, but the calling will not die.

Dick Hardy 15:36
Right

Walter Harvey 15:37
There is life outside of the pulpit. There is flourishing outside of the role of being a lead pastor in a church. And there is so much that each person has experienced and picked up in life, that God will never waste. And there are opportunities, if that church and that successor is wise, for you to still add value right at your home church.

Walter Harvey 16:07
And that’s been my experience. I’m the apostolic leader, the apostolic Papa of the congregation. And an apostle is one who is sent out, but I come back home. And Judy and I are blessed to still call Embassy Center, Milwaukee, our church home.

Dick Hardy 16:24
Well, that’s absolutely beautiful. You know, because so many pastors I’ve come across, you know, when they head out to retirement, all of a sudden, either they have to or they feel like, I gotta leave.

Dick Hardy 16:36
And they’ve invested years, decades of their life, they’ve raised their kids there, you know, everything. So that what you just said to us, I think is so critical and so important to factor.

Dick Hardy 16:51
You know, Walter, I just have appreciated you as a friend over these years, and the content you just gave to pastors and leaders is so good. I want to thank you for taking time to be with me on the podcast today. It really has been my priviledge to be able to hang out with you on it.

Walter Harvey 17:07
Thank you for the priviledge, Dick.

Dick Hardy 17:09
Absolutely. Well, I hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of The Church Tips Podcast. We love producing content for pastors and church leaders. I will say a couple of things, one on this particular topic.

Dick Hardy 17:21
If you find yourself in your 50s or early 60s, and you’re saying, I need to be navigating this succession planning idea, certainly feel free to reach out to me, [email protected]. And, I’ll be glad to talk to you and either help in any way I can, advise you, get you directed, but to be helpful in that way.

Dick Hardy 17:49
Secondly, all of us as pastors are continuing looking for ways to get better. And one of the things that my son, Jonathan, and I have produced is called the 4 Secrets Masterclass. And if you’d like to jump into the masterclass you can feel free to do that.

Dick Hardy 18:05
Just go to leaders.church/secrets, leaders.church/secrets and we’d love to have you in on the masterclass. In the meantime, for Walter Harvey and myself, we’ve appreciated having you today. Make it a great one, and be blessed.

---

Like this post? Sign up for our free blog updates to never miss a post. We’ll send you a FREE ebook to say “Thank You.”

YES! SIGN ME UP >>

---

Discover what pastors of growing churches do to see massive growth and how you can position your church for the greatest days ahead.

Click here to get immediate access to this free masterclass.

Subscribe & Follow:

• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
• Follow on Spotify
• Subscribe to YouTube Channel
• Subscribe on Google Podcasts
• Like us on Facebook
• Follow us on Instagram
• Follow us on Twitter

Other Resources:

• Leaders.Church
• Leaders.Church Blog
• Church University
• Take the Free 5 Day Leadership Challenge for Pastors
• Get Free Access to the 4 Secrets Masterclass

Share This Article

---