What’s in this Episode?

In this episode of the Church Tips podcast, pastor and author Chase Replogle is unpacking his new book, The 5 Masculine Instincts.

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Read the Transcript

Jonathan Hardy 0:05
Hey, I want to welcome you today. Jonathan Hardy here with Chase Replogle. My friend Chase is the lead pastor of Bent Oak Church, the host of the Pastor Writer Podcast, and the author of this brand new book, The 5 Masculine Instincts. Chase, welcome to the show today.

Chase Replogle 0:21
Yeah, thanks for having me. I’ve been a longtime follower of Leaders.Church and kind of been around on the margin some, so it’s a it’s cool to actually be in the content not just consuming.

Jonathan Hardy 0:29
Yeah, I know. You’re kinda coming on different sides, you’ve been behind the scenes helping us at different times too, which has been super helpful. And you guys have to pick up this book if you have not yet heard of it or read it yet. The 5 Masculine Instincts. Chase, I’m gonna jump right in and chapter one, your title of your chapter is…miss the page there, Men Meet in the Masculine Malaise. Tell us a little bit about why you talk about meat in this book.

Chase Replogle 0:54
Well, there’s some really interesting studies Believe it or not, this is actually an area of academic focus, why men eat more meat than women. Some studies say that men eat as much as 57% more meat than women. I don’t know if that’s true in your family. That’s been true in my family. But there’s a whole bunch of debate around why that is, why do men eat more meat than women?

Chase Replogle 1:13
Some people think it’s marketing. It’s related to a kind of caricature we created within culture. Others think that it’s evolutionary, that there was a moment in biology in our biology where it changed because men began to hunt more. There are some who think that an all meat diet is the source of restorative health for men, and there are others who think that eating too much meat is causing global warming and risking human existence.

Jonathan Hardy 1:35
Well, I’ve been reading about the carnivore diet lately. So I’m interested.

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Chase Replogle 1:38
So, I basically tried to make the point in the book, if there’s this much controversy around why men eat more meat than women, well what else is confusing about being a man? There was a study out of the University of Hawaii, where you’ll love this, they told men that they were interacting in a study on a pizza ordering app. So in other words, they were interacting on the interface about this app. But really, it was a test of this whole theory, why men eat meat.

Chase Replogle 2:02
And so they had the participants take a personality assessment. And it didn’t really matter how they answered. Half of the men, they told had scored in line with other men. And half of the men they told had scored in line with female participants. There weren’t female participants, their answers didn’t matter. They made it up to create what the study literally calls a masculinity threat condition. So that’s the scientific form, they question their manhood.

Chase Replogle 2:25
Then they kicked them into this app to order pizza. And what they found is the men who had had their masculinity threatened, ordered more meat on their pizza statistically than the men who hadn’t. And so, there’s this whole area of focus around why men eat more meat. And, again, try to raise the point if there’s this much debate about that question. Well, what else is being debated about being a man today? There’s a lot.

Jonathan Hardy 2:46
Well, tell us a little bit more about that controversy as it relates to masculinity overall?

Chase Replogle 2:51
Yeah. Well, I’m a pastor. So I understand as a man, myself, I grew up with a brother, I’ve got a son, I have men in my congregation. So I’ve watched the way over the last few years, as you know, even putting the word masculinity in a book title all of a sudden makes it somewhat controversial, regardless of what’s even written on the page. The topic itself feels increasingly controversial. And I’ve watched the way as pastors a lot of us have kind of avoided the conversation.

Chase Replogle 3:15
It seems culturally acceptable to have a talk about women and to build strong women’s ministries, but you feel like you’re risking something if you try to build a men’s ministry, or talk about manhood in today’s culture. So what I wanted my hopes the book would be, would be a path for leaders, but also just for men to navigate some of that controversy and find a path towards just greater Christ’s likeness, the cultivation of character. And we wouldn’t just sort of keep digging the same trenches deeper and deeper, but particularly as churches find a way through that controversy to talk about manhood again.

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Jonathan Hardy 3:48
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s so needed today, more than ever, you know, it just seems like everything is degrading men. And so, as it relates to men, you talked about men’s ministry. You know, that’s one of the things I’ve observed, with all the churches that we’ve worked with, a lot of people have women’s ministries, but they don’t know how to reach men. You know it’s like, well, and you even hear people talk about it, congregation members talk about, hey, well, we’re doing this for women’s we’re doing this, what are we going to do for men? And, you know, what are ways that you’ve seen that can help churches reach men?

Chase Replogle 4:21
Yeah. Well, first of all, I have a lot of sympathy because it is hard. All the statistics tell us men are participating in church less than women. They’re participating in own private faith less than women. So I never made any of this as a criticism because I get it as a pastor myself, too. But, men feel defensive right now. We’ve sort of been talking about this. They’re skeptical of anybody who’s trying to cure their masculinity.

Chase Replogle 4:43
I’m using that language because it feels like the cultural conversation. So I think you have to go into it knowing that if men sense that you’re selling them something or you’re trying to change something, although we obviously you’re trying to lead them to Christ and build a better character, if it feels like a project, men tend to be reluctant to that. The other thing I would say is pay really close attention to the questions and the conversations men are having in your church, and they’re probably not the ones you imagined.

Chase Replogle 5:07
We’ve spent a lot of time talking to men about male sins. Sometimes we frame it as money, sex and power. Those things are certainly important, but they’re not the things oftentimes men find themselves wrestling with. Their asking deeper questions about why are the those particular temptations real in my life, or they may be having cultural conversations that are completely off your radar. I’ve got a list I keep on my computer of just stuff that I know, particularly young men are talking about. And you may roll your eyes at some of the topics, but it tends to be things like UFOs, and conspiracy theory, psilocybin, and physique, and we go down a long list.

Chase Replogle 5:42
Yeah, I’m not saying you have to preach a sermon on those. Or like pray. I mean, I didn’t write a book on those particular things. But being aware of the things that are culturally interesting for men, is an important part of just being able to exist in that place with them, and then have a conversation about the things of faith in a way that matters. So, we’re really we’re in a different world when it comes to men today than we were 15 to 20 years ago. And as pastors, we’ve got to be able to know that and be a part of that as well.

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Jonathan Hardy 6:07
Yeah, that’s good. I really liked that concept. Because if you go straight to a sermon on porn, or all these different things that men struggle with, I mean, while we want to solve the problem and help reach them, you know, you’ve got to first start by identifying where they are.

Chase Replogle 6:22
My experience has been that men are keenly aware of how they’re falling short. They’re not, it’s not that they can’t imagine a better version of themselves, they wish they were. The thing they’re running up against is no matter how hard they try, they don’t seem to make progress towards that thing that they’re aiming their life at.

Chase Replogle 6:37
So when we come in and simply say, you’re not being who you should be, you’re not living the way you should be. Most of them are going, yeah, yeah I know. Can you not show me a path forward? And that’s why I’ve been trying to have a conversation around character. How do we build internal character as men so that we can bear those responsibilities, culture, the church, family, and to do better?

Jonathan Hardy 6:56
Yeah. And then that’s better than alienating them, which is what would often happen. So talk to us a little bit about what the five instincts are that you talk about in the book?

Chase Replogle 7:04
Well, a little bit like we were saying, instead of coming to the topic, saying, here are the five sins that men struggle with, what I tried to do with the book is say, here’s some of the instincts or impulses that may be at work within a man’s life that he’s not even aware of. CS Lewis defined an instinct as behavior, as if from knowledge. So in other words, you act imagining that it’s rational, and you’ve decided and you understand why you’re doing it, when in reality, you’ve probably never stopped to consider why it is you act that way or why you intuitively, instinctively respond that way.

Chase Replogle 7:35
And so the book takes those five instincts actually from a famous Shakespeare play, As You Like It, there’s a famous line, all the world’s a stage, people know that one. It goes on to describe the stages of a man’s life from a schoolboy on to what we might imagine retirement years. And those stages, the five of them in the middle that he depicts, really are images, or pictures, of these kinds of instincts, or narratives, that we live out as men.

Chase Replogle 8:01
So I gave a word to them, so it’d be easier. Shakespeare uses a picture, I use a single word and I pair them with a biblical character. So those five instincts are, sarcasm, the story of Cain. Adventure, the story of Samson. Ambition with the story of Moses. Reputation, the story of David, and apathy with Abraham. So, sarcasm, adventure, ambition, reputation and apathy.

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Jonathan Hardy 8:23
Yeah, that’s awesome. So, how does paying attention to these instincts, as a man, how’s that going to help them then grow? What’s that next step look like?

Chase Replogle 8:32
Yeah, the book actually uses a model from the Apostle Paul’s writing in Timothy. One of the great things about Paul’s letters to Timothy is, in other of Paul’s writings, he writes to whole churches, you know, when he writes to the Romans, he hasn’t even been there yet. When he writes to the Corinthians, it’s this community, this network of churches.

Chase Replogle 8:48
But when Paul writes to Timothy, he’s writing to a young man that he knows really, really well, who’s serving in Ephesus at a time when it’s a really difficult assignment. And so you get this really personal advice from Paul to the young man, Timothy.

Jonathan Hardy 9:00
Yeah

Chase Replogle 9:01
And one of the things Paul says to Timothy is, he says, make sure and show the progress you’re making. So in other words, show this character, this growth of virtue, Christ’s likeness in your life, that should be evident. And then Paul sums up that progress by saying, and you’ll do that by keeping a close watch on your life, and a close watch on the teaching.

Chase Replogle 9:20
Teaching here’s a shorthand for doctrine or gospel. So in other words, Paul says to him that the way you’ll make progress and demonstrate that progress is by learning to pay close attention to your life, your motives, your instincts, your desires, and then also paying close attention to what you have in Christ, the message of the gospel that you’ve received.

Chase Replogle 9:38
And it’s by pushing those two things together, that sometimes we keep separate, working those two things together, Paul goes on to say and it’s by this you’ll save yourself and your hearers. In other words, you’ll bear responsibility as a pastor well, and you’ll serve well. So the reason I think a conversation around instincts is particularly important is number one, culture is not helping us with this conversation.

Jonathan Hardy 9:59
Right?

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Chase Replogle 9:59
Everything’s external, everything’s about expectations, who teaches you to look inside and understand and then challenge the things that are inside of you. But also because this is Paul’s advice to a young pastor, in a really difficult assignment, on how he’ll serve that congregation well, lead well, he’ll do it by understanding his instincts, and by applying the things of the gospel to it.

Chase Replogle 10:20
And so that little model plays out for each of the instincts and the characters. I try to show how’s that instinct possibly at work in your life? And how do you check that instinct with something you have in Christ, an intentional practice of faith, to make sure that that instinct isn’t dominating you, or you lightly indulging it? That, for me is a path towards character bearing better responsibility.

Jonathan Hardy 10:41
Right, right. And the better our character can be more like Christ, then the better off we are.

Chase Replogle 10:45
Yeah. And the more the more we serve well. I mean, that’s Paul’s point, you’ll save your those you’re responsible for by character. So, your family that you’re a part of, the church that you’re serving, the community you’re in. And that’s the thing I think men are looking for. To go back to our conversation. They’re looking for us to give them a path to say, you don’t have to live stuck in the same sense. You don’t have to live in the shallow cliche of sitcom masculinity. You can actually become the kind of man, by Christ in the power of the gospel, they can bear responsibility that can serve well, that can lead well. And I hope this book is just a starting point to get me down that path.

Jonathan Hardy 11:21
Yeah. Awesome. Love it. Well, as it relates to our audience, which is primarily pastors, ministry leaders, how can they use this book in their churches or ministries?

Chase Replogle 11:31
Yeah, well, I hope the book gives language for men to be able to have more meaningful conversations around these topics. I think about books, books that are really successful, I think, do this. So maybe a close parallel, like The Five Love Languages. I think part of why that book has done so well for people is it gave us the words to be able to have conversations with a spouse, where before that might have been tension. Now you’re able to say, no, no, I’m looking for words of affirmation. And that language facilitates a better conversation that leads to improvement.

Chase Replogle 11:58
I hope these five instincts give men and the men you lead in a church that language, those tools to discuss and better understand maybe even across generations. So I’ve worked on a whole set of tools to go around the book. There’s a PDF study guide that has personal reflection questions, as well as group conversation questions. There is a video series that goes along with it. There’s an online assessment that you could take anytime you don’t have to have even bought the book. Twenty-five questions, it’ll help you maybe discern which of these five instincts is most prevalent for you at the moment.

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Chase Replogle 12:28
And then there’s also a YouVersion, devotional and read Bible reading plan that goes along with each of the instincts. So maybe between group sessions, there’s a reading plan that each man could kind of spend more time throughout their week focusing on. So if you’ve got new ideas, I’m happy to hear about them. Add them in as well too.

Jonathan Hardy 12:44
That’s a lot of great resources.

Chase Replogle 12:45
Yeah, I just want to be able to make it a book that again, you could pass out to the men in your congregation that would help them personally grow, but also would help move the conversations in your men’s ministry, in your homes, in your churches forward for men. And again, to kind of come back to where we started, to maybe take the controversy out of it and say, how do we as particularly Christian men just focus on becoming better men? That’s really what we need right now.

Jonathan Hardy 13:07
No, that’s really good. Can churches get together and have like meat while they read the book.

Chase Replogle 13:13
Hahaha. Whatever you want to eat while reading is totally up to you.

Jonathan Hardy 13:17
Well, hey, guys, you have got to pick up your copy of this book. And I would actually encourage you to buy some bulk copies if you can, because this is a great book, that’s going to be a huge for the people in your church. So pick up one for yourself, but man, get 25, get 50 copies for the people in your church, it will be a huge blessing to you. Obviously, you can check out the5masculineinstincts.com

Chase Replogle 13:43
Yep, Google it, you’ll find it as well too.

Jonathan Hardy 13:44
Yeah, yeah. That’s where you can go and get all the resources that Chase was talking about. But then as well, you can get the book there. You can go to Amazon, get the book there. But I really want to encourage you get this for you, get this for people in your church, for the men in your church, for your men’s ministry, the leaders, your church board, whoever it is, that is a man in your church. They need The 5 Masculine Instincts book by Chase Replogle. Chase, thanks so much for joining us today on this podcast. Really appreciate all your insight and hope that the book continues to go well.

Chase Replogle 14:15
Yeah, thanks. Happy to do it. And you know I know men well, because there’s also an audiobook version. So, encourage all the men in your church, they can just listen to it as well.

Jonathan Hardy 14:15
There we go.

Chase Replogle 14:16
Thanks for having me out. I really appreciate it.

Jonathan Hardy 14:17
Yeah. Love it. That’s awesome. Hey, thank you so much for being with us today. We’ll look forward to seeing you next time. Until then, be blessed.

The 5 Masculine Instincts

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