What’s in this Episode?

What do you do if you have a staff person at the church who wants to work a side hustle? Should you allow them to do it? Are they not allowed to do it? They need to make a little extra money. The church can’t afford to give them the resources they need. So, should they do this side hustle? That’s a question some churches are facing. And in today’s episode, we’re going to debate the pros and cons of this situation and help you determine the best decision moving forward. Churches and side hustles can be tricky, so we’re here to help.

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Read the Transcript

Jonathan Hardy 0:00
So, what do you do if you have a staff person at the church who wants to work a side hustle? Should you allow them to do it? Or they’re not allowed to do it? They need to make a little extra money. The church can’t afford to give them the resources they need. So, should they do this side hustle? That’s a question some churches are facing. And in today’s episode, we’re going to debate the pros and cons of this situation and help you determine the best decision moving forward. Here we go.

Dick Hardy 0:28
You know, my wife and I have been blessed to be part of a great ministry journey. We’ve worked for a couple of great churches and parachurch ministries, and we really enjoyed the journey. We had these two kids, this being the oldest one here, and we were privileged to raise them. But along the way, we reached points, like, probably almost every family reaches where money got tight. It got so tight, that on two occasions, I got paper routes.

Dick Hardy 0:58
So, here I am, you know, I’m working for the church. And I’m getting up early, like at 2:30 in the morning to get all bundled up and we lived in Iowa at the time. So, in the winter, you know, you’re fighting the snow and the cold and you’re out there you grabbing these papers. This is old school, I know folks, when you know, you’re actually delivering a newspaper.

Jonathan Hardy 1:16
Yeah, exactly.

Dick Hardy 1:16
But we did that for one reason. Not because I love to get up at 2:30 in the morning, but because we needed money. We started a couple little in-home businesses, Silk and Straw, PJ Productions, Midwest Billing. This is when the internet was really starting to come out in the old school 90s. But the point being, we were on staff at a church, and yet we were doing things to earn extra money. The question we’re going to talk about today is, is that right for a church to encourage, or allow staff members to have side hustles?

Jonathan Hardy 1:53
So, my question is, was I that expensive to raise?

Dick Hardy 1:59
Yeah, right, right. Yeah,

Jonathan Hardy 2:00
Just kidding. Just kidding. It was actually my sister.

Dick Hardy 2:02
Actually, it was your sister. She was the expensive one. Right.

Jonathan Hardy 2:06
Yeah. So Well, anyway, this is gonna be a fun one today, because we are going to go do something a little bit different than normal. And we’re going to actually share both sides of the coin on this issue.

Jonathan Hardy 2:15
I’ve got the right side. I’m the correct side.

Jonathan Hardy 2:17
And I have the wrong side? Is that what you’re saying?

Jonathan Hardy 2:20
So, we still love each other, but we view things a little bit differently. And we’re going to be sharing these thoughts today. And so, why don’t we just kick it off?

Dick Hardy 2:27
Yeah. Okay. So yeah.

Jonathan Hardy 2:29
So, the question is, should churches allow staff members…

Dick Hardy 2:35
allow or even encourage staff members to have side hustles?

Jonathan Hardy 2:38
Good, Just to caveat here. Obviously, we’re talking about paid staff in this particular case.

Jonathan Hardy 2:42
Paid staff. Yeah.

Jonathan Hardy 2:42
So, obviously, if they’re volunteer, then they have another job.

Dick Hardy 2:45
So, that’s right. Okay, so I’m gonna take the position that what I did, while I was raising him, and his expensive sister, was not right to do. That I shouldn’t have done that, or the church should not have allowed me to do that. And let me tell you why. For the church. it distorts, or has the potential to distort the budget. You could, as the church, you can begin to think, “Oh, because we’re paying Dick this amount of money. This is okay. And we could keep doing this.”

Dick Hardy 3:17
Never mind that Dick and Pat, were facing some tough times. There should have been communication going back and forth, way more than there was. But when you’re in the mindset of the employee, the employee doesn’t want to come groveling and saying, “Well, you know, I’m not getting my money, I need more money. Blah, Blah, Blah. Pastors typically don’t want to do that, which I didn’t want to do. But the church should have been attuned to say “No, we’re not going to have that happen.”

Dick Hardy 3:43
And it just potentially distorts the budget. And it creates dependency on outside sources. And you don’t want to get in that boat. Because that means the employee, the pastor can begin to depend on the ability to earn more money outside versus doing what they’re doing at the church, and that takes their eye off the ball. Things can really get out of control that way. And then frankly, the staff can abuse the privilege. Here’s the deal. I make X number of dollars as a staff employee.

Dick Hardy 4:19
Very few staff, employees, or pastors are paid on a commission. So, they’re paid X number of dollars a year. I can earn a little bit over here, or a little bit more or a little bit more, a little bit more. And as my needs would get bigger and bigger, I could say, ‘I’m not gonna keep doing more of this, because I can make more money over here.” I get it. I’m talking about the human part.

Jonathan Hardy 4:33
Sure.

Dick Hardy 4:41
of people, but that’s what your staff members are. They are human. Yes, they’re committed Godly pastors, but they have this human piece. And I say, no way Jose, should you be allowing or encouraging that. So just try to undo that.

Jonathan Hardy 4:56
But that. Well, I think they should. And the reason I think they should, well, there’s several reasons, is because the church landscape is changing. And what is probably a little bit of a difference between the generation here. Although you definitely did. You did what I think the churches should allow, because well, and let me kind of qualify with this. You know, if the churches could afford to pay people what they deserve to be paid, this wouldn’t be an issue.

Jonathan Hardy 5:28
We wouldn’t even be having this discussion. But at least in the United States church context, which is what I’m most familiar with, I’m assuming the western church context is the same as a whole. People, pastors, staff people of churches are not paid what they should be paid. So, is that fair for us to say, well, then you’re just gonna have to live a life of poverty and are poor your whole life? And you’re raising two kids or raising three, four or five kids, you know. To me, that just doesn’t seem right.

Jonathan Hardy 5:28
And so, I feel like, we need to be able to do things that will allow for him to be able to maybe, not even necessarily get ahead, but just be able to live like a basic life without the stress of that. When you have the stress of finances, it affects your marriage, it affects your parenting, it affects your overall way of life. And if you bring that into your ministry, you can’t be, you can’t be as effective. And so, you need to be able to have a little bit of that breathing room financially.

Jonathan Hardy 5:57
And so, if that means the church can’t, they can’t pay you what you need to be paid, then I feel like the church needs to say, “Okay, well, you know, then we’re going to have to allow the side hustle.” Now, I also want to qualify and say, if it’s your main job as an employee, you can’t put in 75% effort. I mean, you still need to give the hundred percent effort. So, then that’s where the side hustle comes in, which means you’re hustling it at night.

You’re doing something on the weekends, or whenever you have. You’re taking a couple days off. You’re using vacation time to work on something else that’s going to allow you to do that.

Jonathan Hardy 7:01
Because otherwise, you can’t get ahead. In the 21st century church, and at least in the United States, most churches do not pay people enough to where they’re going to be able to retire someday. They’re just not. And you know what it’s like. You’ve got pastors that are older than you. They’re still out there, trying to do it, because they

Dick Hardy 7:20
For one reason, they need money,

Dick Hardy 7:21
They need money. They can’t retire. So, if we keep on the same trajectory right now of not paying pastors what they should be paid, staff people what they should be paid, then we’re not setting them up for the final future success. I understand where you’re coming from, and you’re saying, “Well, then it’s gonna distract them. What if they see they could start making more money? And they want to start putting more time for that?

Jonathan Hardy 7:42
Well, that’s on them. I feel like that’s on them and their relationship with God to decide. Should you know, maybe God’s steering them in another direction.

Dick Hardy 7:52
Well, I think it’s the relationship with the pastor, as well. I mean, they’ve got to talk.

Jonathan Hardy 7:57
Sure.

Dick Hardy 7:58
In most of my cases, I was not talking about the extent of the need in my family.

Jonathan Hardy 8:03
Yes, exactly.

Jonathan Hardy 8:04
And so, I mean,

Dick Hardy 8:05
And in part ,because it’s embarrassing.

Jonathan Hardy 8:07
Yeah.

Dick Hardy 8:08
For goodness sakes, I was the administrator of the church, you know. So I’m supposed to be able to, and yet, we were facing what we were facing in our home.

Dick Hardy 8:15
Well, wait a minute. Boy, I don’t want to be arguing your point for you?

Jonathan Hardy 8:17
Well, I think you’re helping. Am I winning so far? So anyway, that’s just where I’m at. I just think the church landscape is changing. And I think that people have to, I mean, their number one priority is take care of the family. And if you can’t put food on the table, or if, and now I’m not saying you, you should be doing that to go live a luxurious life. So, you get your Range Rover and your Lexus. And you’re all you know, your bells and whistles and your huge house and all that.

I’m not advocating that you go to a side hustle to do that.

Jonathan Hardy 8:47
But if you, you know, are making what you were making in your case, and you just need a little bit of breathing room. You don’t need the stress of the finances. And in today’s age, we have the ability to create online resources like never before, courses and things. And so, that’s where I just think, man!

Dick Hardy 9:04
I’ll give it to you. It is a different world today than it was in the 90s.

Jonathan Hardy 9:07
Yeah, it’s different. It’s different. So, that’s why I’m thinking if a church can’t pay people, then they need to allow people to go make some additional money. That’s where I’m at. There you go. All right.

Jonathan Hardy 9:16
All right, we’re gonna give you our snapshot argument. The reason you really should not allow or encourage side hustles is it takes the eye off the ball to me, of the pastor or the employee. And it could create a distortion of what it really takes to have that person there. So, I would say, “Pastor, you need to be talking to your staff members all along the way, forcing them to communicate to you where they’re really at with their personal family budget. And so, anyway, just don’t do it.

Jonathan Hardy 9:49
And then allow them to do side hustles, so that they can have the resources they need to be able to have their focus on the ministry and not be distracted by the finances and the pressures and the stress that it’s going to bring on their family and their parenting and all those things.

Jonathan Hardy 10:04
Good argument.

Jonathan Hardy 10:06
All right, well, we’ll let you be the decision maker. Who is maybe it’s a combination of both.

Dick Hardy 10:11
Maybe it is. You know, we talk, we’ve got a number of episodes where we talk about the budget issues relative to the church. Where you know, we’re talking about, you know, how the church actually pays. And if there’s distortion, in Episode Seven, we talk about how to balance a church budget. And there’s a big piece in there about, you know, compensation for those who do have staff members where there’s one or two pastors or whatever.

Dick Hardy 10:34
That’s important to take a look or we think you’d find that valuable. You know, I would encourage you to as a pastor, to take a look at the Five Day Leadership Challenge that we have created here at leaders.church for you. You just go to leaders.church/challenge, because here’s the drill. As the leader, whether you’re in the position where you need a side hustle, or you have an employee, a pastor on your team that wants to do a side hustle.

Dick Hardy 11:01
A big piece of this is how you lead through it. And the Five Day Leadership Challenge is going to help you be better, be a better you, be a better leader for your church. We really encourage you go to leaders.church/challenge, and you’ll be able to just jump in. You do it today. Today is day one. Then you just start through the Five Day Challenge. It’s about 15 minutes a day that you that you invest in you. When you invest in you, growing churches are led by growing pastors.

Jonathan Hardy 11:28
Right.

Dick Hardy 11:28
And if you’ll invest in you, you’ll get better and in turn the church will get better, and your ability to lead your team in the areas we’re talking about today will accelerate.

Jonathan Hardy 11:36
That’s right.

Dick Hardy 11:37
You know, we want to encourage you to jump on social media. Follow us there. And also to subscribe to the podcast platform that is of your choice and rate and review us. We’ve got T. Matrone. I think I know T. Matrone. And he said “practical insight, great content for these challenging times. Thanks to Jonathan and Dick for sharing”> Well, thank you, T. Matronefor that review. And if you write a review for us, who knows? We may read your review and one of the upcoming episodes right of Church Tips podcast. Anything else, Jonathan?

Jonathan Hardy 12:08
Well, I thought of some more arguments. But while I was sitting here, I was like, “We’ll have to have “debate part two. Oh, I didn’t even mention that one.”

Dick Hardy 12:16
Yeah, it was a good thing we shut this off when we did.

Jonathan Hardy 12:18
That’s right.

Dick Hardy 12:19
Thanks for listening today or watching. Make it a great one and be blessed.

Jonathan Hardy 12:23
Hey, Jonathan here, real quick before you go. Everything in your ministry rises and falls on your leadership. So investing in your leadership is essential to staying healthy and growing the ministry. And that’s why I want to invite you to join us inside the leaders.church membership. This online streaming service for pastors gives you access to more than 300 videos plus training material to level up your leadership and improve your ministry skills. If you’d like to do that I want to invite you to go to leaders.church/boost.

Again, that’s leaders.church/boost. Well, thanks again for joining us on the Church Tips podcast. We’ll look forward to seeing you next time.

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