What’s in this Episode?

In this podcast, we talk with Leaders.Church member, Pastor Bobby Gourley, on the topic of Deconstruction in the Church. This discussion will clarify for many what is good and what is bad about deconstruction. Pastor Bobby challenges all of us to seek God in the leadership of our churches. In doing so, we need to always separate what has become accepted practice (some good, some not so good) from what Jesus really says in His Gospel.

 

Read the Transcript:

Dick Hardy 0:00
Hey friend, it’s great to be with you here on this Church Tips Podcast, and I’m thrilled today that I get to hang out with my buddy Bobby Gourley from the great state of Alabama, although he tends to claim Tennessee as I as I remember, so…

Bobby Gourley 0:19
Born and raised.

Dick Hardy 0:20
Born and raised. And when I go into Chiefs country, he keep… what are you telling me? the Titans are going to rise again? Is that what you tell me?

Bobby Gourley 0:27
I doubt it, but we can say that, if you want to.

Dick Hardy 0:32
It’s all good. So hey, we want to jump into a little bit of a different topic today here for this podcast. You know, if you’ve been in ministry for any time at all, and certainly in recent months and years, you’ll watch things happen in the on the church landscape, with pastors and churches that there’s some seem to be taking dramatic shifts.

Dick Hardy 0:59
Some even to the point of ministers completely forsaking the gospel, going a completely different direction, and they’re doing all that under the guise or a term of deconstruction. And Bobby and I’ve had some conversations about this, and I thought, you know, it’d be good just to have Bobby come on and talk.

Dick Hardy 1:23
It’s not like he’s the end all in this, but he’s pretty smart guy, and I want him to talk with us as pastors about the good side of deconstruction, the bad side of deconstruction, and where we really need to land in making sure in our own leadership we’re doing right by the Gospel and and how we proclaim the Gospel and move it forward.

Dick Hardy 1:52
So Bobby, boom, I’m just dropping a quarter in you to say, talk to us a little bit. Help… let’s, let’s put everybody at a ground zero base that they don’t understand what this is at all. And let’s define it, and then start talking through it.

Bobby Gourley 2:09
Yeah, it’s good. I think you when you look at the word deconstruction, it means to tear down, to not build. And as pastors, we’re called to build the church. And so the term deconstruction is already a negative.

Bobby Gourley 2:20
It’s an enemy because somebody destroyed destroying what we’re trying to build up. And so deconstruction is nothing more than people who are deconstructing the church or deconstructing their faith to remove everything they don’t believe is of God from it.

Bobby Gourley 2:35
And what’s interesting is every generation has their own form of deconstruction, where a younger generation sees what the previous generation has built, and they’re like, hey, like, is this really biblical? Is this is this really God?

Bobby Gourley 2:46
Hey, you know you’re saying this is the Gospel, but it doesn’t really sound like Jesus, look like Jesus, talk like Jesus, act like Jesus, smell like Jesus. And I was reminded years ago, I was in a difficult season of ministry. My wife and kids were at the beach, Panama City Beach, and I was sitting there, I think I was listening to a podcast.

Bobby Gourley 3:00
I was reading a book, and the kids were back at the condo, toys at the condo, and watching the waves crash in. And I was and I was in kind of a prayerful moment. I just felt like God said, Look, this is beautiful, isn’t it? I said, yeah, it’s gorgeous, peaceful.

Bobby Gourley 3:16
The waves are crashing in, you know, the beautiful water, the white sand. He said, now look back and I look back and Panama City has a strip and there’s airbrushed T shirts and liquor stores and restaurants and miniature golf and go karts. He said, look back.

Bobby Gourley 3:31
He said, years ago, people started coming to this beach because of the simple beauty of the beach, but then, man, wanted to add other stuff to it to maximize. He said, but people still come here for the simple beauty of the beach. They don’t come for the airbrush T shirts. They don’t come for the go karts.

Bobby Gourley 3:49
That’s all added to and he said the same with my Church. He said, but the Gospel in my Church is beautiful in its simplicity. He’s like, and we can add stuff to it continually, but people still want to come for the simplicity of the Gospel and the Church.

Bobby Gourley 3:52
And I think that’s kind of the root of deconstruction is… there’s a whole generation of people that look at the church that we’ve built in the previous generation, and they’re like, hey, there’s a lot of airbrush T shirts, a lot of go karts, a lot of miniature golf.

Bobby Gourley 4:14
There’s a lot of stuff that doesn’t really seem like it’s the church. And what they’re doing is, I don’t think they’re actually, there’s some are, but I don’t think they’re tearing down the church as much, trying to take those layers off to get back to the simple beauty of Jesus, the gospel and His Church.

Bobby Gourley 4:29
And I think that’s good. I think, you know, we used to call that reformation, and so I’ve told some of our young people that have asked questions about deconstruction. I said, you know, I don’t mind you, you know, reforming the church, I don’t mind us tearing down stuff that God didn’t build.

Bobby Gourley 4:43
We still want to make sure we build back something better and so. But there is a movement in deconstruction where it’s just people trying to tear down the Church. And I think in Psalms 1 David, if David’s the author of it, says it beautifully. Says, first they stand with scoffers. And then they walk with the wicked, and they sit down with them.

Bobby Gourley 5:05
And I think there’s a component of it where, in our church relevance age, that we begin standing with sinners, and then we start sitting with scoffers, or walking with scoffers, and they’re scoffing at the church, scoffing at Jesus, scoffing at the Bible, scoffing at everything we stand for, and then we end up sitting with them, and we become more like them than disciple them to become more like us.

Bobby Gourley 5:28
And I think that’s the liberal side that we see, where people are like, you know, they remove, they they they disconnect truth from grace. And so the Gospel is a Gospel of love, but it’s not a Gospel of transformation. It’s not a Gospel of of, you know, truth. It’s not a Gospel of the Kingdom. It’s just love. God is love, since we need that.

Bobby Gourley 5:48
So there is a side to that, and I think that’s what scares pastors the most, is that feels like a threat to the Church and to the Gospel. And I’ve seen pastors preach against it and and fight against it. And I think the biggest key to deconstruction is just to listen like if we listen, it’s almost like these little Martin Luthers are running around and they’re trying to tell us, hey, I’ve been digging in the Word and I don’t see any of this in the Word.

Bobby Gourley 6:12
Why do we do this this way? And I think most of us come from backgrounds of leadership. We push anybody questions, anything about our leadership or about what we do, we kind of push back against them. And I would say, just embrace them, like little Martin Luthers.

Bobby Gourley 6:27
And so we can see the church reformed, and see some of those stuff stripped away. See the political, you know, idolatry stripped away from the Church. See the fact that, hey, we’re building huge cathedrals, but we’re not feeding the poor. And start seeing some is pulled away so the Church can be. It’s the pure and spotless bride that that she’s called to be.

Dick Hardy 6:47
So how would you address so that’s … if I can use the term you and I in in together, viewing this similarly, how do we address our colleagues who really are on the more what you and I would call a more negative side, they’re they’re really going the wrong direction.

Dick Hardy 7:14
And how do we help the younger ones under our charge be able to differentiate? It’s one thing to be a little Martin Luther who’s truly trying to make for a better church. It’s totally something different to literally end up sitting with scoffers and tearing down the church. So how do we help a younger person really decipher that?

Bobby Gourley 7:36
I think it’s.. and this sounds like super simple, but I think it’s, it’s two things. I think one is theology. I think we haven’t been preaching good theology. We’re preaching self help stuff. And so when the self help stuff doesn’t help, people deconstruct the whole thing.

Bobby Gourley 7:53
And so I think a theology of the what is the Church? Is it this corporate expression that we see in the West, or is it a gathering of believers who live to advance the Kingdom and to worship Jesus and to live like Him in every form or fashion?

Bobby Gourley 8:08
A theology of the character of God. What is the character of God? Is He just love, or is He holy? What about the wrath of God, the judgment of God? And I think I said this during covid, I think one of the things we’re seeing is an we’re we’re being exposed for our lack of theology of suffering.

Bobby Gourley 8:25
That as soon as a believer starts to suffer, they start to deconstruct their faith, or believe God isn’t real, or blame God. And so I think theology is one side. Theology of the Word. Is the Word true? Is it inerrant? Is it infallible? If so, why?

Bobby Gourley 8:40
And not just saying because the Bible says so, but really giving a deep, good theology. But then two, actually letting the Church be a family on mission together, where that the people go to church with are family, and we’re here to actually take the Bible and actually do what it says.

Bobby Gourley 8:58
We want to feed the poor. We want to reach the lost. We want to help those who are broken. You know, the social justice things, there was a big pushback from social justice years ago because we were scared of the liberality of it, but the Church should be advancing the Gospel in the areas where social justice is moving.

Bobby Gourley 9:14
So I think those two things together, deep theology, but also unconditional love when they come together, I think you see deconstruction kind of fade away.

Dick Hardy 9:24
Yeah, wow. Good. You know, this, again, is a different kind of podcast than we typically do on the Church Tips Podcast. I really have appreciated you taking time to just open up some of this for us,

Dick Hardy 9:40
For the pastor who’s serious about trying to think this through, what would be a parting shot, if I can ask for that, that you’d say to them, if you don’t remember anything else I’ve said, remember this. What would your thought be that you want to say to the pastors?

Bobby Gourley 9:56
Yeah, God is always building his Church and always purifying his church. Church. And if we were all really honest, there’s a lot of people in our church that aren’t really the Church. And deconstruction, I think sometimes what separates the wheat from the tares?

Bobby Gourley 10:09
So don’t, don’t, don’t panic, don’t try to fight it. Just build God’s Church. And even Jesus said he’s let the wheat and the tare go together, and at some point I’m going to separate it. And you don’t have to do the separating, God will do the separating.

Bobby Gourley 10:09
And to be honest, the there’s a, you know, you call it communist or Marxist movement. They’re just deconstructing everything. They’re deconstructing any authoritative structure, government, education, policing and the Churches just happens to be in the crosshairs of that.

Bobby Gourley 10:38
So don’t take it personal and just build the Church and let God do the rest.

Dick Hardy 10:41
Yeah, absolutely. Wow. That’s been so good, Bobby, I can’t thank you enough. If anybody wanted to get a hold of you, they could contact their the church. We wearechapel.org. Are is spelled out, A, R, E, so, W, E, A, R, E, C, H, A, P, E, l.org.

Dick Hardy 10:59
It’s the first time I’ve spelled out the entire website of a church so you can, you could get a hold of Bobby there at the church. Thank you very much, Bobby for taking time to hang out with us today. I really appreciate it.

Bobby Gourley 11:11
Always a pleasure.

Dick Hardy 11:12
Yeah, you bet to all the viewers, I pray that you have a great day today, and you take the thoughts we banged around today and make application of them in your own life, your own church, and that your ministry grows and the church grows as a result of you being better as a pastor. Thanks for hanging out with us today. Make it a great one and be blessed.

Jonathan Hardy 11:31
Hey, Jonathan, here real quick before you go, everything in your ministry rises and falls on your leadership. So investing in your leadership is essential to staying healthy and growing the ministry, and that’s why I want to invite you to join us inside the Leaders.Church membership, this online streaming service for pastors, gives you access to more than 300 videos plus training material to level up your leadership and improve your ministry skills.

Jonathan Hardy 11:51
If you’d like to do that, I want to invite you to go to Leaders.Church/boost. Again, that’s Leaders.Church/boost. Well, thanks again for joining us on the Church Tips Podcast, we’ll look forward to seeing you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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