What’s in this Episode?

In this podcast, we talk with Erie, PA lead pastor, Nichole Schreiber, about change. We talk about things that seem simple to us yet are not. You must hear her story of removing a couple of pews in an 80s-style church. Wow! Did that hit the fan! A pastor needs to factor in God’s will in making change, possibly doing changes in seasons, and then really identifying what the desired end result should be.  Kudos to Pastor Nichole for a great podcast!

 

Read the Transcript:

Dick Hardy 0:06
Hey, friend, it’s great to be with you on this episode of the Church Tips Podcast, and we are so privileged today to have my good friend Nichole Schreiber at the as the lead pastor of Erie First Assembly in Pennsylvania, and she’s sliced off a little time to talk to us today. Nichole, great to have you with me today.

Nichole Schreiber 0:23
Thank you so much for having me. This is such a privilege, and I’m just so excited to talk a little bit today. I’m a big proponent of Leaders.Church, I’ve gleaned a lot of great wisdom over the years, and so I’m glad to just give back a little bit about some things I’ve learned.

Dick Hardy 0:37
Well, it’s gone both ways, and we very much appreciate all that you’re doing there at that great church. You know, you’re at a church with rich, rich history and and you came in here, you’ve been lead pastor. How long now?

Nichole Schreiber 0:54
About seven years.

Dick Hardy 0:56
Oh my goodness, can you believe that?

Nichole Schreiber 0:58
No, and the church is about 100 years old. So has been in our community for a long time. Lots of incredible leaders have gone before me. I’m standing on the shoulders of many of them.

Dick Hardy 1:08
Yeah, that’s great. Well, today we’re going to talk about the issue that is not new to the church, and that’s the issue of navigating change. And I’ll tell you, I’m a generation ahead of Nichole, and it our generation faced it and is facing it.

Dick Hardy 1:29
Her generation is facing it. It really applies to everyone. And the principles Nichole is going to talk to us about today, really all of us need to take to heart. So give us a jump start on this, Nichole, maybe give you a piece of your journey that really brought you to the point where you’re going to talk about the things you got today.

Nichole Schreiber 1:49
So when I came seven years ago, there was definitely parts of the church that needed a jump start, a revitalization, if you will, some maybe things that had been going on for some time, but were maybe like dead ministries, if you you know, but they were just part of who we were, and even some of our facility needed fresh eyes.

Nichole Schreiber 2:12
And I think one of the advantages of having a new leader was I could really see the things that needed changed. You know, we shake at that word, right? That change word, but there was a lot of people here in my great church who just really didn’t want anything to change, and they didn’t see anything wrong with the way we were doing it.

Nichole Schreiber 2:33
And what’s that old adage like, if it’s not broke, don’t fix it, although lots of things were broke. But change is scary and change is hard sometimes, you know, to understand and and so when I got here, there were a lot of things that we really needed to reevaluate nd to look at.

Nichole Schreiber 2:48
And one of the things I really realized is that the really, the only way for an organization to grow and remain strong is to change. And so if you’re not willing to do that, you’re always moving in the trajectory of downward, right?

Nichole Schreiber 3:02
If you’re not, if you’re not willing to change. And so I can remember one, just really quick story. I we had these big, long, pink pews, you know, in our sanctuary, like many churches built in the 80s. And I just wanted to

Dick Hardy 3:15
They were pink?

Nichole Schreiber 3:17
Mauve,… please, mauve, yes. And I just wanted to remove a couple so that there would be a space for maybe wheelchairs or people with strollers, you know, just give a little space and, and so we took those pews out, and we sawzad them out and took them out and, and they were kind of over near, like the barn where we’re going to get rid of them.

Nichole Schreiber 3:41
And people came to church, and I was just so oblivious to the fact that this would be a problem. And they were just so mad. It was like I was burned the Bible. Turn my you know, I became the, you know, turn my back on everything. They were so angry.

Nichole Schreiber 3:58
And in fact, one, one sweet man came up to me, and he said, I paid for that pew with my tithe in 1985 and and I had no idea that this would be the reaction to this very in my mind, very small change of just making the seating a little different, but it people very much held on to their traditions. So, have you ever had an experience like that? Where people got upset about a small change?

Dick Hardy 4:23
Yep, and you know, the thing is, I’ve said about change because people say, people, people, they don’t like change. They don’t, and I said, the reality is, I don’t know that people don’t like change. People fear loss.

Dick Hardy 4:39
And so your illustration there that guy began to see him losing his church, yeah, or losing control, or losing an investment, if that’s the way he viewed that. So, but yeah, it’s there. It’s there. And things we think are small, yeah. I got to think them all the way through.

Nichole Schreiber 5:03
Yeah, I think too generationally, like you mentioned, we’re a little bit of different generations. And so things that are important to me might be different than the things that are important to a different generation.

Nichole Schreiber 5:16
And so what I found was there was a generation of people that could care less about those pews, that if they were there or not, but there was a generation that really, really cared about those and I, as a leader, I did not have the sensitivity to that, that I that I learned to have, I guess, as I went on.

Nichole Schreiber 5:34
The other thing about change is oftentimes, when something gets changed, people think, Oh, well, the last thing we did was wrong or bad or villainize it in some way. And so I came in and said, Okay, we’re going to change this program.

Nichole Schreiber 5:48
And they would say, Well, what’s what’s wrong with it? There’s nothing bad about it. But something to change does not mean it’s wrong or bad or you have to say that was terrible. It’s just different now, and that’s okay. And I think that’s another thing that’s very hard as it all generations, right, that we, that we kind of deal with that.

Dick Hardy 6:05
Okay, so you’re going to head into change. You know, you’ve been doing this now for seven years. You had so those early years, and you were learning things along the way. What are some, either questions or whatever, that you process as you’re beginning to think about the next thing that you need to make a change in?

Nichole Schreiber 6:24
Yeah, that’s a great question. So one of the really big questions that I’ve learned to ask over time is, is this God’s will, this change? Is this God’s will and God’s timing? And I think it’s important to kind of piece together that there are two important pieces to a big decision.

Nichole Schreiber 6:42
The first is to seek the wisdom from God to know how to tackle the obstacle or the situation. But then the second one is to really understand when you should do it, the wisdom the discernment, to know when to actually, you know, implement that plan.

Nichole Schreiber 7:00
I think there’s been a lot of times my team and I have maybe identified a problem, brainstormed a solution, prayed about it, and we were ready to implement it, but there was that little bit of, you know, check in your spirit, or like this just doesn’t seem quite right.

Nichole Schreiber 7:15
And it wasn’t that we weren’t confident that the solution, we had the solution, we had it, but the confidence came in when was the timing of that change? You know? Because I think a good plan executed at the wrong time can actually create a lot more difficulty than solution, you know.

Nichole Schreiber 7:34
And so some some questions to ask just to determine God’s timing is like, when does this logically fit into the calendar that I already have implemented? You know? Why? Why, why change, change something that doesn’t naturally fit, you know, can you do it when a season ends, or a staff member is departing, or there’s a global pandemic?

Nichole Schreiber 7:55
Hopefully that doesn’t happen again, you know? But, but is there, is there a right time in the calendar, or type of year or season, you know that makes the most sense to implement the change. I think asking that question is almost as important as asking God the plan to change the thing.

Dick Hardy 8:12
Yeah, yeah, that’s good. Okay, so, you know, you come to a conclusion that this is God’s will and it’s the right time. So what’s, what’s the next step?

Nichole Schreiber 8:23
Yeah, so I think the next thing I really learned, and I’m still learning in this process, is I have to think to myself, how can I make this change in phases? And so I think oftentimes what happens is you, you’ve thought about it as the leader, right?

Nichole Schreiber 8:42
You’ve processed it. You’ve thought about it when you’re brushing your teeth at night. You know you’ve talked about it with your spouse, maybe you’ve talked about it with your team. At nauseum. Everybody knows the vision.

Nichole Schreiber 8:51
They know what you’re going to do, but you have to remember that when you go tell your congregation, it may be the very first time they’re hearing about it. And so for them to get their their minds around what it is that you’re doing or why you’re doing it is really different.

Nichole Schreiber 9:09
And so I think a lot of times, one of the things we have to remember to do is first cast vision. This is why we’re going to change this. This is the reason, if I would have told the congregation I want, I’m praying that the Lord reaches more young moms who are going to bring strollers into this sanctuary.

Nichole Schreiber 9:29
So therefore, I’m going to take these pews out so that these young moms have a place to bring their baby and rock their baby. You know, that would have been a whole different conversation. But instead, I got the Pew out through it to the garbage, you know, at the garbage dump, and then I had some angry people.

Nichole Schreiber 9:44
And so I realized that really strongly communicating the vision, and then thinking through the steps that it would take to get there, that would really, if you will, pace the change so that you can get to where you’re going.

Nichole Schreiber 10:01
You know, and I think as a leader, oftentimes we we want, if we see a solution, all leaders just want to get there, right? Because you want to, you want to live in the solution. But when I have paced my change and I know where we’re going, that’s what vision is.

Nichole Schreiber 10:16
But I’m walking out the steps to get there, I have found that people go with me. And what’s leadership? People follow you. If no one’s following you, you’re not leading anybody, right? And so, and I think of this, it’s kind of silly saying, but how do you eat an elephant, right?

Nichole Schreiber 10:32
One bite at a time. And so if you have a situation, a context, that you want to change something, a big thing, a big change, think of the next best step, and then do that thing, and then do the next thing, andand you can really walk people you know, into that, into that preferred future, into that vision, without asmuch conflict or resistance they’re coming with you.

Dick Hardy 10:54
Yeah. That’s good. That’s good. So, you know, you’ve processed that this is God’s will. This is the right timing of it, and you put a plan in place where it phases in, and I’m guessing that phasing would be different from situation to situation, but you’ve, you’ve, you’ve laid that plan out. So what’s next is, I mean, are you done, or is there another…

Nichole Schreiber 11:23
Yeah, I think one of the most important things when managing change also is to take some time, obviously, to visualize the end result, which I think all leaders do, but to really think about what success looks like after that change is implemented, right?

Nichole Schreiber 11:45
How will this help you honor God more? How will this benefit your organization? And I think by doing that, first of all, you can kind of probably anticipate any trouble spots that you might encounter, but also it allows you to measure if the change was successful.

Nichole Schreiber 12:03
Because if there’s nothing to compare it to, you never know if you hit the target. You know so. And it’s one of those things where it’s like, if you have a plumb line to measure, you’re able to say, hey, we made this change, and we did it.

Nichole Schreiber 12:16
So I’ll give another example. We were very stuck on Wednesday night worship service, Sunday morning worship service, right? That was very much the the kind of format of churches for a long time.

Nichole Schreiber 12:30
And when we moved from that to a small group system, where we were asking people to meet in homes and and to meet, you know, every night of the week in different homes and pick a small group that fits them and whatnot.

Nichole Schreiber 12:42
That was a big change. And people were, oh, I don’t know, Pastor, like you’re all they saw was, you’re canceling Wednesday night service. Well, I wasn’t canceling Wednesday night service.

Dick Hardy 12:51
They thought they’re losing their Wednesday service.

Nichole Schreiber 12:54
Yes!

Dick Hardy 12:55
When in reality, they’re gaining something.

Nichole Schreiber 12:57
Exactly, we were gaining more discipleship. But what, what I had to do was, when I said, I visualized the change and said, Okay, we are going to stop doing Wednesday night service, and our prayer is that 25 more percent of people, so let’s say we are 25% of people are coming to Wednesday service, that 50% of our whole church would be in a disciple Link small group having conversations about the Lord outsideof Sunday.

Nichole Schreiber 13:23
And so once we, you know, we made the big leap, right? The big change, we phased out. We gave them lots of time. Okay, we’re, it’s January, and we’re going to stop doing this service in May. We’re going to have, you know, four more months.

Nichole Schreiber 13:35
Okay, guys, there’s three more months. There’s two more months, you know. And when we stopped that and went to the small group system, I was able to report back to the church in celebration. Hey, we have now increased our attendance, you know, to small groups, by 25% and now 200 people are in discipling, you know, conversations instead of 100 right?

Nichole Schreiber 13:58
But if I hadn’t decided where I wanted to go, and what the goal was, all we would do is look back and say, Well, yeah, we stopped doing the Wednesday night service, you know. And then, like you said, it counts it as loss and not as gain.

Dick Hardy 14:11
Yeah, exactly. You know, these three questions or points that you have have been so valuable, really, I hope the viewers and the listeners will replay this, not only in their mind, but literally, go through it again, because the content you’re talking about is is so helpful to every pastor, every church leader.

Dick Hardy 14:35
You’re going to make change. You’re going to make a transition in the church, that somehow and these things are so helpful. Nichole, if somebody’s listening to this, they haven’t caught a thing you said, what is one thing you want them to remember as we wrap this thing up?

Nichole Schreiber 14:56
Yeah. I think it would be that as you are leading. And God gives you incredible ideas to every time, submit your idea fully to the Lord, every detail, every decision, every speed bump, every naysayer, you know, right, submit it all to the Lord.

Nichole Schreiber 15:14
And just really expect God to blow your expectations out of the water. Because He’s always He’s always working to advance the Kingdom. So if we can get on His board to do the changes that He wants us to do, to reach more people we know, like he says in Romans 8:28, He causes everything to work together for the good of those who love him and are called according to His purpose.

Nichole Schreiber 15:34
And so as we decide to make change, don’t do it alone. Do it with God in every piece of it and prayerfully consider it He He never tires of us asking even the details of things and and asking him to help us, guide us.

Nichole Schreiber 15:47
And I think that’s really going to put us in a position to reach more people for the kingdom, which is the point, anyway.

Dick Hardy 15:53
Exactly right. Nichole, thank you very much. You have been a gift to the Church Tips Podcast today. We are so thankful for you spending time with us and to the listener and the viewer. We certainly would love to have you rate and review this podcast and any others that are are in the Church Tips Podcast and certainly spread the word forward it along.

Dick Hardy 16:19
Love to have you subscribe. If you’re not a subscriber, click that subscribe button and and gain the content that’s going to help you advance your church. God’s given you a great opportunity.

Dick Hardy 16:32
Nichole has helped us with one area that affects all of us as pastors and leaders, and that we’re grateful for that, but to the viewer and the listener. Take it to heart. God has great plans in store for you, and you’re gonna be able to navigate the change the Lord’s put put before you. So again, Nichole, thank you very much for being with us today. We really have loved the conversation.

Nichole Schreiber 16:52
Thank you so much.

Nichole Schreiber 16:53
Make it a great one today, friends and be blessed.

Jonathan Hardy 16:57
Hey, Jonathan, here real quick, before you go, everything in your ministry rises and falls on your leadership. So investing in your leadership is essential to staying healthy and growing the ministry, and that’s why I want to invite you to join us inside the Leaders.Church membership, this online streaming service for pastors gives you access to more than 300 videos plus training material to level up your leadership and improve your ministry skills.

Jonathan Hardy 17:18
If you’d like to do that, I want to invite you to go to Leaders.Church/boost. Again, that’s Leaders.Church/boost. Well, thanks again for joining us on the Church Tips Podcast. We’ll look forward to seeing you next

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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