What’s in this Episode?

In this episode of the Church Tips Podcast, Jeff Deyo (former lead singer of Sonicflood) and Dick Hardy discuss ways to keep the congregation involved and engaged in worship.

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Show Notes:

The Worship Leadership Track by Jeff Deyo is LIVE!
http://leaders.church/worship

PDF’s:
The Pastors Guide to Navigating Generational and Cultural Worship Gaps
The Worship Pastors Guide to Honoring The Lead Pastor

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Read the Transcript

Dick Hardy 0:07
Hey friends, great to be with you on this next episode of the Church Tips Podcast. I’m Dick Hardy, your host, and I am thrilled today to be with my friend, Jeff Deyo, who has just done a great job providing great content, some of the last few podcasts. And he is the presenter of the brand new course the Worship Leadership Track of Church University. You can go to churchuniversity.com, click the blue button up the upper right hand corner, you can hear all about it. But Jeff, say hi to the folks here today.

Jeff Deyo 0:35
Hey, what’s up guys. Listen, I want to encourage you guys to stop swiping, stop surfing the internet, all that stuff. Just give us a few minutes, because I believe we have some very practical things that are going to help you as leaders right here in this podcast.

Dick Hardy 0:47
We really do. And the topic we’re covering today is what expectations should we incorporate for our team members. So lead pastor, worship leader, you’ve got these good folks from the church who volunteered to be part of your worship team, what should be their expectation? So we’re going to jump right into that here, Jeff, and appreciate you taking some time to really visit with us on these subjects.

Dick Hardy 1:13
How can a worship team lead worship with unsaved, but talented people? So I don’t know if they’re looking about hiring hired guns or, or what? Maybe, you know, this could be a hot potato, but I’m guessing you’ve handled one or two hot potatoes in your day. So take us with that. And and by the way, with that, there’s another kind of a tandem question. How much is too much to expect of volunteers that roll along? So maybe you can grab some of those and run with it.

Jeff Deyo 1:45
Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Well, as you said, this is a very controversial topic. And I’ve actually seen, I actually saw in a magazine, a Christian magazine years ago, this question posed where they actually had two people respond, right? One person responded to the idea that yes, it’s okay to have unsaved people on the platform, helping lead worship, and an other person came and said, it’s not okay to have unsaved people on the platform. They both presented their position.

Jeff Deyo 2:20
The thing that drove me nuts is that nobody used scripture in their analysis of why they believe what they believe. So, I think it’s really important for us to understand these things. Here’s the thing. If you, you’ve got to understand that there’s something. First of all, we’ll start with this, that every person involved with worship, on the stage and off the stage are all worship leaders. See, there’s a misnomer, there’s the misunderstanding, that it’s just the guy with the microphone, who’s the worship leader.

Jeff Deyo 2:54
Now, this means that, hey, this is exciting. That, hey, the bass player is also a worship leader, the drummer is also a worship leader. But we even go further and we say the guy running the lyrics, the lady writing the lyrics, is a worship leader, right? Because if they’re behind on reading the lyrics, it doesn’t help with facilitating connection with God. What about the sound engineer, the lighting director? If the lights all go off, or if the faders all come down on the soundboard, like that’s going to hinder, not help, the worship. So that means all of us are worship leaders.

Jeff Deyo 3:27
So if that’s true, that’s exciting. It’s like, wow, I didn’t realize as a guitarist, I’m a worship leader. I feel so valued. Well, yes, you should be valued, but you also have to understand that a responsibility comes with that role. And you can’t just say, oh, anybody can be on a platform leading worship. One of the ways that I’d like to remind you of this and I’m gonna hurt myself, I’ll mess with myself here because I don’t have the chapter and verse, but you know, this Bible verse where it tells us not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers.

Jeff Deyo 4:07
Now, most people see that as a relational thing, but I would dare say to you, because it doesn’t say that in the Word. It just says, Don’t be unequally yoked. I would say with any major partnerships, you should never be partnered, in big areas, with unbelievers. In your business, I wouldn’t partner, high level, with an unbeliever You’re asking for trouble. Same thing in your marriage. Don’t do it. It doesn’t work.

Jeff Deyo 4:38
Same thing with worship leadership. You know, in the Old Testament, all of the Levites and musicians and singers are part of the Levitical priesthood, right, all of them were required to memorize the first five books of the Bible. Hello. I think we’re missing something here, right? Are people who are leading worship they’ve got to allow the power of God to flow through them, and if they aren’t believers, then it’s not going to happen.

Jeff Deyo 5:06
Now, you might say, Jeff, here’s my push back. I know a guy. We try to take our experience to inform the Bible, as opposed to letting the Bible inform our experience. We say, I know a guy who was unsaved and he played on the worship team, and then he gave his heart to Christ. Okay, so if that happens, should we make that the rule or is that the exception?

Jeff Deyo 5:30
Imagine you have three daughters, and you have a rule in your family, you cannot date an unbeliever. Let’s say your oldest daughter decides to go against that rule behind your back, begins to date an unbeliever, and praise God through your prayers and your love for this young man, he actually eventually gives his heart to Christ. Now let me ask this question, are you going to change the rules for your other two daughters and say, You know what, let’s go for a date all the non-Christians you want to. No. That’s the exception to the rule. It can happen. But that’s not the way it’s supposed to happen. All right? So we’re saying that the Bible tells us not to be unequally yoked. So it’s very important for us not to involve unbelievers in leading worship.

Jeff Deyo 6:18
Now, you also asked the question about how much is too much expect of volunteers? Oh, man, it’s such a challenging thing here. But, I would say there’s a couple, you got to kind of come at this from two different angles. One is you do need to be careful, because you don’t want to burn out your volunteers. I’ll give you a couple of thoughts.

Jeff Deyo 6:37
You do not want to have the same team on every week in your church. If your worship leaders and musicians are scheduled every week, you are going to burn them out. And they need to be able to sit with their family in your church service at least once, if not twice a month, and just abandon themselves to God. So they can be fresh. Now hopefully, they’re spending time with God in the secret place as well. And then they can overflow when they’re on the stage. But you will burn your people out if you don’t create a rotation system.

Jeff Deyo 7:12
Now, let me give you the flip side of that. I would also tell you, and this isn’t like an amount of time, but it’s more about calling your volunteers to a high level. I have a note in my course plans for North Central University, where I teach. I’m a professor there and I teach our worship leading majors and I teach songwriting and all those types of things.

Jeff Deyo 7:31
I have a note at the top of my course plans and it says this, expect great things from your students. Because if you expect nothing, that’s what you’ll get. So it’s time for us to raise the bar, expect spiritual greatness, expect musical excellence, because that’s what the Bible requires of us, and raise the bar expect great things. Come on, call your people, call your volunteers to the next level, and they will deliver as they trust the Holy Spirit to empower them.

Dick Hardy 7:59
Yeah. Oh, wow, that is so good. That really is good. You know, when you were talking about the issue of where people are at spiritually, how do you gauge the spiritual maturity for the qualifications of a worship leader?

Jeff Deyo 8:15
Yeah, wow. It’s obviously very challenging. Number one, you got to be led by Spirit. There’s some obvious keys, some obvious clues, right? I mean, we’re looking for things like integrity, right? Are you the same person off the stage that you are on the stage? Right? We’re looking for things like that. We’re looking for godliness. When you have a conversation with people are they always talking about the latest movies and their social media and all these other things, so many distractions? Or is this a person that wants to engage in a conversation about God, about the things in the Bible, that type of thing?

Jeff Deyo 8:46
Do they have knowledge of the Bible? I already mentioned that the Levites were all required to memorize the first five books of the Bible. Like, does your team know the Bible? One of the ways you can help them grow in their knowledge of the Bible is to have a devotional that you rotate with your team members. And you say, Hey, Joe, next week, I’d like you to lead us in a four or five minute little Bible study. Hey, Sarah, I’d like you to follow him up the next week and bring something.

Jeff Deyo 9:11
What does that do? That causes the people to go, Oh, I’m expected to know the Word. I need to go study, I need to get in my secret place, right? And I need to come and bring something I believe that God has given me. So you’re calling people to a higher level.

Jeff Deyo 9:25
You also need to know, these people on my team, are they more enthralled with playing music? Or are they more enthralled with who God is. Do they see music as their identity? Oh, come on somebody, we got to talk about identity here, right? Identity is the issue. Because so many musicians, that’s where they get their identity. Aw, I’m talented. Oh, I feel good about myself because people are applauding me. No, we’ve got to have our identity in Christ. And you can see that sometimes in your team. Right?

Jeff Deyo 9:56
Now what about submissiveness? You also need to have a team that is submissive and I don’t mean that they’re under your thumb, right? They’re under your authority. But no, they’re submitted and they trust leadership. They trust God with their leaders, to lead their leaders as they lead them. So they’re submitted. They’re devoted. They’re committed. They’re not wishy washy. They’re not always late, they can be counted on, right? These are the things that we are looking for.

Jeff Deyo 10:25
And they they also, the last thing I would say, is that they are listening for the voice of God, come on, this is the difference between immature believers and mature believers. They are listening for the voice of God. They want to know what the Lord is saying in their life. And not only that listening, they’re willing to obey what the Lord says.

Dick Hardy 10:44
Yeah. Oh, so good. So good. Let’s, grab a final question here. What behaviors, now this is, this gets to be a tricky one, let me let me just couch it, that we’re recording this in the US. Of course, we have a good number of Canadians, Brits, Australians, New Zealands, South Africa, Europe. I mean, it really is around the world, so we’re going to talk about, you know, how does a worship pastor or worship leader and the pastor determine these issue of behaviors? So the question is, what behaviors would disqualify a person from being on a worship team? So there’s a hot potato for you.

Jeff Deyo 11:26
Absolutely. Well, part of it, we’ve kind of covered in those things as far as what the scripture, you know, what we’re looking for. Like there’s this back-and-forth between, what are the qualifications versus one what are the things that disqualify us, right? And so there’s a few things that I would say about this. One of them, I would encourage you to study I Corinthians 5, the entire chapter, because there’s this misnomer, this misunderstanding, when it comes to believers.

Jeff Deyo 11:54
The Bible, you know, one of the most quoted passages, Judge not lest you be judged. Now, that is from the Bible, but you have to bring Scripture in. You have to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. So you bring the whole picture when we talk about that. Now, it says here, and I’m gonna pick a verse out, but you gotta go back and look at this. Okay?

Jeff Deyo 12:14
I Corinthians, chapter 5, it says this in verse 12, okay? Now listen, it’s so important, because this is a verse that actually tells us to judge people. You’re like, what? I didn’t even know the Bible said that, yes, it does. Now, listen, there’s only a certain category of people that were to judge. And when we say judge, think of this, guy’s judging is not always bad.

Jeff Deyo 12:37
Think about when you go to the courtroom, and the judge can judge you innocent. That’s a good thing, right? If he assesses that you’re innocent, praise God, the judge has judged correctly. And it’s also a good thing, if you are guilty if that judge judges you guilty, right? So there is good judgment, this assessment of where we are.

Jeff Deyo 12:57
It says this, It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, that means unbelievers, right? It says, But it certainly is your job, this is Paul speaking to the believers in Corinth, it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sitting in these ways. Now, what are these ways?

Jeff Deyo 13:19
This whole chapter is about a man who was sleeping with his father’s wife boldly. While he believed it was right. And he was a Christian. He was a believer. He was like coming to church and letting everyone know that he’s doing this abomination sexually. He’s involved in sexual immorality, yet he’s still claiming to be a believer. Now the Bible is clear. Paul goes so deep into this, he says, Oh, my word. He said, You are to call a meeting of the church, and I will be there in Spirit and the power of the Lord Jesus will be with you as you meet. Then you must cast this men out of the church and into Satan’s hands.

Jeff Deyo 14:01
Wow. That’s the mean part of the church, right? No, listen, this is love. This is love. It says so that his sinful nature will be destroyed, and he himself will be saved. See this is love. Now listen, there’s steps to this process. And here’s the thing we do as believers, a lot of times we take that chapter, and we just throw people out of the window. No, there’s a process. If you look at Matthew 18, it talks about this too. And there’s a process of confronting people in their sin. And then if they have the opportunity to repent, then they’re good.

Jeff Deyo 14:37
So here’s how you know, right? If you find out that one of your team members, and I’m not going to go through all the different things, like well you shouldn’t smoke, well you shouldn’t drink, well you shouldn’t. Hey, if there’s some things you’re doing that are clearly immoral and we find out about those things, our teammates, we go talk to them in love, and we gauge where they’re at by their response. If they get defensive, if they say, Oh, I can’t believe you’re judging me. All that stuff, right? We go to the Bible, I Corinthians 5.

Jeff Deyo 15:06
But if they’re humble. Right? And they say, You know what, you’re right. I was wrong. I’ve sinned, and I want to repent, and they repent. And you say, Well, Jeff, what if they’ve done that 15 times? I totally get it. Right, seven times seven, right? 70 times seven, right? But, yes, forgiveness comes. But if there is a habit or habitual sin, then we need to help people step down, for a time, for healing. If it’s one time, they repent, and we’re done, and they have a good attitude, I think you can keep them on the team.

Jeff Deyo 15:41
If they do it again, and again, and again. It’s like, Hey, I’m not punishing you by taking you off the team. I’m saying I want to remove any distractions that you might have with leadership so that you can get healed, so you can get whole, so that you can be restored. Then I’m going to ask you to be there in the front row, singing or worshiping the Lord, and I’m going to walk with you through this. I’m going to help bring you to restoration. I’m not casting you aside.

Jeff Deyo 16:10
But then if they reject that, then that’s where we come to play. They reject time and time again. They said, No, this is okay. Where’s God’s grace, where’s God’s mercy? I can do this and still be a believer. Then that’s where you have to go to I Corinthians 5 again, and say, Hey, for their good, so that they might be saved. We say, the Bible even says you can’t even eat with that person.

Jeff Deyo 16:30
So those are really hard things, but I encourage you the number one thing is love, right? It’s love when we go to that extreme, if we’ve walked through the steps. But we want to love people, we want to help them, we want to walk with them. If they refuse our love, if they refuse to repent, then the thing that actually will help them is to walk away from them. That’s their only hope at that point, that they might be restored and humbled and then forgiven and brought back into the fold, brought back into ministry leadership.

Dick Hardy 17:05
Wow, great, that’s so good. Jeff, you know, this whole topic of expectations for our team members, is there any parting shot you’d like to give our listeners and viewers today?

Jeff Deyo 17:16
You know, I guess I would just encourage us. This deal of worship leadership is a bigger thing than we realize. Now look.

Dick Hardy 17:24
Yeah, it really is.

Jeff Deyo 17:25
None of us are perfect, right? And that’s what people do. They push back and they say, Well, what about your sin? You’re not perfect, either. Absolutely. But there’s a difference between calling something sin and repenting and saying, Hey, I’m not perfect, I’ve sinned, but I repent. I call it sin versus saying, No, this is who I am. And I just am a sinner saved by grace.

Jeff Deyo 17:46
No, I don’t even allow myself to call myself a sinner. Some people like, What are you talking about? Everybody sins. True. But I don’t label myself a sinner, I’m no longer a sinner. The old has gone, the new has come. I am a child of God. Come on somebody. I’m a child of the King. Now, I do sin. But I’m not going to wear the t-shirt that says sinner saved by grace. I was a sinner and I have been saved by grace, but I am no longer identified by sin, because if you identify yourself as a sinner, guess what you’re gonna do? You’re gonna sin.

Jeff Deyo 18:24
If you identify yourself as a child of God, more times than not, you are going to live as a child of God. I John 2:1 helps us with this balance. It says, John said this, I write these things so that you will not sin. And then he says, but if you sin, then you have Jesus Christ as an advocate. Now I’m paraphrasing there, go back and look at it, I John 2:1. So, if we as believers could at least move from the idea of when we sin, versus if we sin.

Jeff Deyo 19:04
Most believers live in an attitude of well I’m gonna sin. It’s just who I am, it’s part of what. No, you’re a new creation. It’s not when you sin, don’t expect that you’re going to sin. In fact, it’ll change your life if you realize you can have that attitude that John talks about in 1 John 2:1, I don’t have to sin, there’s a way out in every temptation, Romans 8 tells us that sin has lost its power and by the Holy Spirit, we live in holiness. So God’s calling us to another level, and I encourage you to call your team to another level.

Dick Hardy 19:35
That is so good, Jeff. You know, and it just as you’re describing that, it makes me reflect on the Worship Leadership Course. You know, if you get in and dig around in there, and I encourage you to go to churchuniversity.com, go up to the upper right hand corner, click the blue button. And as you scroll down, there’s a button down there where you can see the entire course outline. And you’re gonna see and just a whole, a whole bunch of practical things that Jeff covers, all the while, Jeff is bringing to you the scriptural basis for all that we do. We’re not just doing mechanics.

Jeff Deyo 20:10
That’s right.

Dick Hardy 20:11
And certainly there are mechanics, the skill and the talent with music, we get that. But there is this spiritual component of what Jeff intertwines with all that he teaches. So I strongly encourage you, tomorrow is the last day of the launch sale. So it is two thirds off. And we strongly encourage you to make the investment.

Dick Hardy 20:30
This is truly an investment lead pastor, it’s an investment in your church, in your team. Worship leader, it’s an investment with the people that you work with week-in and week-out, and you will not regret taking advantage of this two thirds off sale. And literally, we’ve got payment plans, 6-month and 12-month, you can certainly do a one time payment, which is the least expensive in total costs, but you can literally get a 12-month plan for $47 a month.

Jeff Deyo 20:58
Hey, listen Dick, can I say one thing?

Dick Hardy 21:00
Oh, of course.

Jeff Deyo 21:00
I want to challenge everybody who’s watching right now, I want you to copy the link on this video. And I’m asking you to forward it to somebody that you love. I’m asking you to copy this link for this podcast, copy the link churchuniversity.com/worship and I’m asking you to text it to a friend text. Text is to five pastors you know. Text it to 10 worship leaders you know.

Jeff Deyo 21:21
I’m telling you, we’re asking you to help us. We are not trying to sell stuff. We are trying to equip the Body of Christ. And I’m asking you to help us to spread the word. We need the the Church of God to come together. And I believe these spiritual principles are going to help you and they’re going to help those that you love, and you’re going to help them grow in their leadership skills.

Dick Hardy 21:47
They really are. Thank you for that, Jeff. That’s a great, great encouragement. Again, the course is available and through tomorrow, at this super deep discount. And we certainly would encourage you to take advantage of that. But for this episode, we have been so grateful to be with you. Thank you for those who are watching or listening. The Church Tips Podcast is here to help you. And we’re looking forward to tomorrow’s episode. And we pray that you have a great day as you continue to serve the Lord. Make it a good one, and be blessed.

Jeff Deyo 22:20
God bless you guys.

Jonathan Hardy 22:22
Hey, Jonathan here real quick before you go. Everything in your ministry rises and falls on your leadership. So investing in your leadership is essential to staying healthy and growing the ministry. And that’s why I want to invite you to join us inside the Leaders.Church membership. This online streaming service for pastors gives you access to more than 300 videos plus training materials to level up your leadership and improve your ministry skills. If you’d like to do that. I want to invite you to go to Leaders.Church/Boost. Again, that’s Leaders.Church/Boost. Well, thanks again for joining us on the church tips podcast. We’ll look forward to seeing you next time.

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